OldSchoolLion
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Posts posted by OldSchoolLion
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24 minutes ago, Nulli Secundus said:
Hey, hey, hey
! I'm crying foul. Question 11 said, "Which 3 counties have the most public school state champions? In other words, these counties have the highest number of different public schools who have won at least one FHSAA title."
What u cryin foul about?. Miami-Dade is one of the three counties, Hillsborough and Palm Beach are not amongst the three. Sure, blame the ref.
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29 minutes ago, Nulli Secundus said:
My Eyes must be tired. Lee is the 2nd largest. The largest is Pinellas
When u my age u can be makin those excuses
Pinellas is correct.
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32 minutes ago, Nulli Secundus said:
11) Dade, Palm Beach, Hillsborough
Only Miami Dade is correct.
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48 minutes ago, Nulli Secundus said:
14) Duval
14 is Duval. Duval has produced the most private school champions.
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46 minutes ago, Nulli Secundus said:
13) Lee County
Lee is incorrect
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47 minutes ago, Nulli Secundus said:
8) Hillsborough, 1969: Blake, Brandon & Pinecrest
Hillsborough is correct!
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For those of you who would propose an All-Private league/division, there are a couple of problems.
1. The 16 teams listed below would annihilate many of the remaining 54 teams listed above. There is a substantial lack in parity amongst FL private schools.
2. Of the 16 schools listed below, note the substantial difference in population of boys at each school. Putting all 16 of these teams in one playoff pool puts some schools at a substantial disadvantage. Note that some of the numbers below include students outside grades 9-12.
St Thomas Aquinas-1994 students
Columbus-1759 students (all boys)
American Heritage Plantation-1511 students
American Heritage Delray-1026 students
Belen Jesuit-849 (all boys)
Monsignor Pace-833 students
Tampa Jesuit-830 (all boys)
Bolles-787 students
Tampa Catholic-702 students
Clearwater Central Catholic-543 students
Chaminade-Madonna-480 students
Trinity Christian-332 students
University Christian-213 students
Champagnat-146 students
North Florida Christian-137 students
Glades Day-99 students
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Do private schools as a whole perform that well in football? The short answer is "not especially," as reflected in the data below. I selected the 70 most well-known private schools in the state(for football) and have listed the title history of each below. Please keep in mind that many of these schools have been around for a long time. There are a number of schools that are 50 years old that have never won a title.
If several of these teams had not had the success they did over the years, the private school debate might be a non-issue, or at least a less talked-about one. So, when we talk about the private school advantage, we should remember that the vast majority of private schools have not done a disproportionate amount of winning. Some interesting statistics:
- 23/70(33%) private schools listed below have won at least one state title. So, 2/3 of private schools have never won a state title. 31/80(39%) of the private schools below have never appeared in a state title game.
- These 23 teams have won a combined 84 state titles out of a total of 308 state titles awarded by the FHSAA. So, private schools have won 27% of the FHSAA state titles awarded.
- Approximately 2/3 of all state titles won by private schools over the past 55 years were won by one of 6 teams. (Bolles, STA, University Chr., NFC, Trinity Chr., and Glades Day)
- 69 of those 84 titles (82%) were won by one of 10 schools listed below. The other 60 private schools won a total of 15 titles between them, 12 of them within the past 25 years.
Bolles-11 state titles
St Thomas Aquinas-11
University Christian-9
North Florida Christian-8
Trinity Christian-7
Glades Day-7
Chaminade-Madonna-5
American Heritage Plantation-4
Champagnat-4
American Heritage Delray-3
State Title History of 70 Private Schools
Note: Teams that have won at least one state title are italicized.
Admiral Farragut 2011 2A runner-up
American Heritage Delray 2007(1A), 2009(1A), and 2011(3A) titles; 2002(A), 2010(1A), 2013(3A) and 2014(3A) runners-up
American Heritage Plantation 2013, 2014, 2016, 2017 5A title; 1998 2A runner-up
Archbishop Carroll no titles
Archbishop Curley no titles
Archbishop McCarthy no titles
Belen Jesuit 2009 3A runner-up
Benjamin 1978, 1979, 1992 A runner-up, 1994 2A runner-up
Berkeley Prep no titles
Bishop Kenny no titles
Bishop Moore 1970(A) and 2015(5A) title
Bishop Verot 1990(2A) and 1994(3A) runner-up
Bolles 11 state titles; 5 runner-up
Calvary Christian no titles
Cardinal Gibbons 2018 5A champion; 1990 3A runner-up
Cardinal Mooney 1972 A champion
Chaminade-Madonna 2003(2A), 2005(2A), 2017(3A), 2018(3A) title, 2019(3A) title; 1974(3A), 2002(2A), 2017(3A) runner-up
Champagnat 2013, 2017, 2018, 2019 2A champion
Clearwater Central Catholic 2013 3A runner-up
Columbus 1980(4A) runner-up, 1982(4A) runner-up, 2014(8A) runner-up, 2018(8A)runner-up, 2019 champion
Dade Christian 2012 2A runner-up
Episcopal(Jacksonville) no titles
Evangelical Christian 2005 1B title
Father Lopez no titles
First Academy no titles
Florida Christian no titles
Glades Day 7 state titles and 7 runners-up
Gulliver Prep 2000 2A title, 2008 2A runner-up
Hollywood Christian no titles
Holy Trinity (Melbourne) no titles
Immaculata-Lasalle no titles
Indian Rocks Christian 2014 2A runner-up
Jesuit 1968 A title, 1992 3A runner-up
John Carroll no titles
John Paul II (Jacksonville) no titles
Jupiter Christian 2007 and 2008 1B titles
Keswick Christian no titles
King’s Academy 2018 3A runner-up
Lake Highland Prep no titles
Melbourne Central Catholic no titles
Monsignor Pace 2003 3A title
North Broward Prep no titles
North Florida Christian 8 titles and 3 runners-up
Northside Christian no titles
Orangewood Christian no titles
Oxbridge Academy 2017 3A runner-up
Palmer Trinity no titles
Pensacola Catholic 2004 2B runner-up
Pine Crest no titles
Pope JP II (Boca Raton) no titles
Ransom Everglades no titles
St Andrew’s no titles
St Edward’s 1989 A runner-up
St John Neumann no titles
St Pete Catholic no titles
St Thomas Aquinas 11 titles and 8 runners-up
Santa Fe Catholic no titles
Shorecrest Prep 1975 and 1976 A runners-up
Tampa Catholic 2007 and 2009 2A runners-up
Trinity Catholic 2005 and 2010 2B titles; 2006 and 2008 2B runners-up
Trinity Christian (Deltona) no titles
Trinity Christian (Jacksonville) 7 titles, 2 runners-up
Trinity Prep 1971 and 1977 A runner-up
University Christian 9 titles and 1 runner-up
University School 2012 3A title, 2010 2B runner-up
Victory Christian 2014 2A title, 2006 1B runner-up, 2013 2A runner-up
Warner Christian 2008, 2009 and 2010 1B runner-up
Westminster Academy 1990 A title, 1991 A runner-up
Westminster Christian 1973 A runner-up
Village Academy no titles
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5 minutes ago, Cat_Scratch said:
Cocoa had a 54 game winning streak back then I believe.
ahhh...the days when Cocoa had a defense
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States Where Private Schools Play Private Schools in Playoffs
Texas-Private Leagues
Washington DC-Catholic League
Maryland-Private League
New Jersey-Private League
North Carolina-Private Leagues
States Where Private Schools Play Public Schools in Playoffs
Pennsylvania-Philadelphia-area private school powers, ie St Joseph's and Archbishop Wood, play together in Philadelphia Catholic League during regular season; some private schools in PA play in leagues with public schools; all private schools play against public schools with similar populations in playoffs; PA recently expended to 6 classes in 2017 and private schools are spread throughout the classes
Southern California-Private school powers play together in Trinity League during regular season; play against much larger public schools in competitive Div 1 CIF Southern Section
Ohio-Private school powers, ie St Ignatius and St Edward's in Div 1), play in very competitive divisions with public schools
Missouri-Christian Brothers-plays in Catholic League during regular season; face public schools in competitive Class 6(Missouri's largest) playoffs
Hawaii-Private schools St Louis and Punahao compete with public school power Kahuku in the Div 1 & Open playoffs. These 3 teams have dominated Hawaii in recent years.
Pennsylvania is the state that reminds me the most of FL. They expanded to 6 classes in 2017 and now there is even more potential to have multiple private school state champions. There is St Joe's in 6A, Malvern Prep and Archbishop Wood in 5A, and the 1A-4A classes each have multiple private school powers. There is a legitimate possibility of having 6 private school state champions in Pennsylvania.
We all know southern California is loaded with private school powers. Come playoff time, though, there is a handicap. With the exception of Mater Dei, many of these private school powers have less than 1000 students. They are playing against highly-ranked public schools public schools such as Long Beach Poly (4400 students), Upland (3400 students), Centennial (3300 students), and Mission Viejo (2400 students) with much larger populations, and in an area with a rich talent pool. Though the private schools have the upper hand, there are a number of public schools in southern CA who can certainly hold their own against them.
So, what's the point? As best I can tell, the situation we have in FL with private school powers spread amongst multiple classes they can potentially dominate, is not common. The closest thing I have found is Pennsylvania in their 3A and 4A classes, but the level of domination has not been quite as extreme.
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A private school has faced a public school in 85 FHSAA state finals, all listed further below. Private schools have won 45 and public schools have won 40. Coming into 2016, it was tied 36-36, but private schools have pulled slightly ahead since then. Since 2000, private schools are 31-19 in those matchups. Public schools had the advantage prior to 2000.
Since 1990, there has been at least one private vs public school state final each year except for 2002. Below are 10 teams that have been involved in a number of these matchups.
- St Thomas Aquinas(STA) is 11-8 against public schools in state finals.
- Bolles is 7-6 against public schools in state finals.
- North Florida Christian(NFC)is 5-0 against public schools in state finals. (all against Ft Meade)
- American Heritage Plantation is 4-0 against public schools in state finals.
- Glades Day is 3-5 against public schools in state finals.
- Lakeland is 5-1 against private schools in state finals. (all against STA)
- FAMU is 4-1 against private schools in state finals.
- Booker T Washington is 4-1 against private schools in state finals. (all against Bolles)
- Pahokee is 3-2 against private school teams in state finals.
- Baker is 3-2 against private schools in state finals. (all against Glades Day)
Public School vs Private School State Final Matchups over Time
2019 Columbus over Apopka
2019 STA over Edgewater
2019 BT Washington over Bolles
2019 Chaminade-Madonna over FSU
2018 Mandarin over Columbus
2018 Lakeland over STA
2018 Cardinal Gibbons over North Marion
2017 American Heritage Plantation over Baker County
2016 STA over Plant
2016 American Heritage Plantation over Ponte Vedra
2016 Cocoa over Bolles
2015 STA over Viera
2015 Bishop Moore over Wakulla
2014 Apopka over Columbus
2014 STA over Osceola
2014 American Heritage Plantation over Godby
2014 BT Washington over Bolles
2013 American Heritage Plantation over Clay
2013 BT Washington over Bolles
2012 STA over Lincoln
2012 BT Washington over Bolles
2012 University School over Madison County
2011 Bolles over BT Washington
2011 American Heritage Delray over Madison County
2010 STA over Plant
2009 Pensacola over Belen Jesuit
2008 STA over Lakeland
2008 Pahokee over Trinity Catholic
2008 NFC over Ft Meade
2007 STA over Osceola
2007 Madison County over Tampa Catholic
2007 Jupiter Christian over FAMU
2006 Lakeland over STA
2006 Bolles over Clewiston
2006 Pahokee over Trinity Catholic
2006 FAMU over Victory Christian
2005 Lakeland over STA
2005 Chaminade over South Sumter
2005 Trinity Catholic over Pahokee
2005 Evangel Christian over Graceville
2004 Lakeland over STA
2004 Bolles over Jefferson
2004 Pahokee over Pensacola Catholic
2003 Chaminade over Madison County
2003 NFC over Ft Meade
2001 Lincoln over STA
2001 NFC over Ft Meade
2000 Pine Forest over STA
2000 Gulliver over Marianna
2000 NFC over Ft Meade
1999 STA over Escambia
1999 Frostproof over Trinity Christian
1999 NFC over FT Meade
1998 Bolles over Pahokee
1997 STA over Rutherford
1996 Lakeland over STA
1996 Bartow over Bolles
1995 Bolles over Hardee
1994 Union County over Bishop Verot
1993 Bolles over Lake Wales
1993 Graceville over Glades Day
1992 STA over Leon
1992 Pasco over Jesuit
1991 Fort Walton Beach over STA
1990 Suwanee over Cardinal Gibbons
1988 Graceville over Glades Day
1986 Bolles over Palmetto
1986 Glades Day over Century
1985 Baker over Glades Day
1984 Baker over Glades Day
1983 Baker over Glades Day
1982 Woodham over Columbus
1982 Glades Day over Baker
1980 Tate over Columbus
1980 Glades Day over Baker
1979 Ernest Ward over Benjamin
1978 FAMU over Benjamin
1977 FAMU over Trinity Prep
1976 FAMU over Shorecrest
1975 Greensboro over Shorecrest
1974 Ocala Forest over Chaminade
1972 Cardinal Mooney over Wewahitchka
1971 Hastings over Trinity Prep
1970 Bishop Moore over Shanks
1968 Jesuit over Kathleen
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Over the past 50 years neither Tampa Jesuit, Tampa Catholic nor or Berkeley Prep have won a state title. As I have stated elsewhere, we don't a private school problem. We have an issue with a relative few private, powerhouse programs.
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3 minutes ago, muckboy561 said:
Whatever
I love ya man.
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3 minutes ago, TRAJAN01 said:
I should have remembered that 1981 Wakulla season!!! They had a dominant defense that year. We beat Bolles 38 - 0 in the semifinals and Clewiston 24 - 0 in the finals. In those days state championships were held on campus. That was a long ride to Clewiston. The year before we had to travel to Clermont to win the state championship.
No matter which direction you come, the drive to Clewiston is a whole lotta nothin.
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3 questions to go. C'mon, #9 is easy. #8 and #10 are a bit tricky.
8. Which was the first county to have 3 or more schools(public and/or private) in the state finals?
9. Which 2 counties have had 3 or more private schools in a state final in one year?
10. Which was the first county to have 2 different teams each play in back-to-back state finals?
I am adding questions...
11. Which 3 counties have the most public school state champions? In other words, these counties have the highest number of different public schools who have won at least one FHSAA title.
12. In terms of population, this is the largest county NOT to have a back-to-back state champion.
13. In terms of population, this is the largest county NOT to have a state champion.
14. Private schools in this county have won more combined state titles than private schools in any other county. Which county?
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14 minutes ago, Nulli Secundus said:
Dade-yes
Orange
Hillsborough-yes
Polk-yes
There you go. Orange had Apopka, Edgewater and Jones last year!
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16 minutes ago, SubZero said:
Some of the publics here in Broward & Miami-Dade can hold their own water vs. the Elite [Aquinas, Heritage, Columbus, but i think they just need to cut the classes down to 5 or 6 then it would be fine.
I agree. And if we had a relegation system, as discussed in other threads, the elite privates would work their way up in class, where they would not be as dominant.
If the Broward privates were routinely facing the Miami-Dade powers in the playoffs, we would see fewer state titles out of those private schools.
-STA's last playoff game versus a strong Miami team was in 2003 versus Edison, and STA lost at home. South Dade gave STA battles in the 90's and Homestead did the same the 80's.
-AHP got taken out by Miami Jackson in 2011 and 2012 and Northwestern last year.
-Cardinal Gibbons is 1-4 in their last 5 playoff games versus Miami-Dade schools
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42 minutes ago, muckboy561 said:
Which schools is number 3?
Miami-Dade 2013 South Dade, Miami Central, BT Washington, Champagnat-all won state titles); 2019 MD had 5
Palm Beach 2009 Glades Day, AH Delray, Dwyer, Glades Central-ALL EXCEPT GC won a state title. I won't mention the team that beat GC that year, but I will give you a preview of your Christmas present muckboy. If its any consolation, Keem told me that the Raiders were definitely #2 that year.
- muckboy561, KeemD321 and DarterBlue2
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3
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21 minutes ago, Perspective said:
No apology needed. The issue is very similar. There is one big distinction: in the Ohio game, it appears the refs made the decision to end the game (while, presumably, the decision was within their jurisdiction to make). In the Texas game, it appears the refs allowed the game to be completed and some governing body (similar to the FHSAA or the county AD's office) came along after the fact and made the decision to disqualify the team from any future play. But, to your point, in both situations, it's a team being punished based on the actions of an individual.
There is a hard lesson for the kids today...do something to damage your reputation and you are gonna pay for it for a long time. This is one of the downsides of computers. In the old days, unless someone was inclined to go the library and search microfiche, you could escape your past, to some extent. It is very unforgiving today.
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7 minutes ago, Perspective said:
Good background, OldSchool. But just to be clear, I was responding to Jambun's comments about the Edinburg/PSJA (Texas high school) game -- your first clip -- where the player (number 88, I think) comes running back onto the field after being ejected and slams into the ref. From Jambun's comments, that game was allowed to continue and the team for whom the ejected player plays ended up winning the game, only to have some governing body decide afterwards that, because of the incident, their season would be declared over.
I apologize for the confusion. I was thinking in terms of whether it was justified for refs to end the Ohio game and, in essence, punish the whole team for the actions on one player.
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1 hour ago, Perspective said:
Jambun, I struggle with this issue. I think we all agree that the kid who hit the official deserves to be punished (although we might quibble over the severity of the punishment and who dishes out the punishment). And while I understand that football is the epitome of a team game, unless there is some evidence that the coaches promoted the behavior, I struggle with making the other 50-70 players on this team pay for his crime. I can see both sides of the argument. The player got penalized and then ejected for his (apparent) late hit on the QB and whatever he did or said to the ref immediately after that. Another penalty obviously should have been assessed against the kid/team when the kid ran back onto the field and hit the ref. (Question for you Jambun: when a player is ejected from a Florida high school football game, does he have to leave the bench area? If so, should the officials have waited until that happened before resuming play? Either way, should the officials have called the game right then and there? Under what authority?).
Again, without evidence that the school/coaches/team promoted an atmosphere of disrespect towards officials that could, in any way, help to explain the kid's actions, I'm just not sure that the collective seasons of all the other kids should end because of the actions of one. Put yourself into the shoes of the other hundred plus parents.
On the flip side, I guess you can make the argument that it's no different than a kid cheating in school or lying about his residence and then being declared ineligible. Typically, the team suffers the penalty when it has to forfeit games.
So, what say you others out there? Even the guy providing commentary noticed that the coaches and teammates of the wrongdoer handled themselves in the right way. Suspend the kid indefinitely/for the rest of his high school career. Charge him with a crime. Regardless of the kid's punishment, should the team be prohibited from continuing to play? What if the kid had waited until after the game before he charged the official? What if he had waited until the next day, tracked him down, followed him to The Home Depot and then charged him right in front of all the power tools? Would your opinion be the same?
The following made a lot of press in Ohio. In 2018, there was a brawl in a regular season game involving Dunbar vs Bishop Fenwick, a private school. After suing, Dunbar was allowed to play in the state tournament, and employed the strategy in the second link to win against Fenwick. When all the dust settled, it was determined that Dunbar was culpable in the brawl.
https://usatodayhss.com/2018/how-standing-around-won-a-playoff-basketball-game-in-ohio
One article I read had the following quote from a Dunbar football player....(The OHSAA), they’re always picking on Dunbar,” said Scates, a talented receiver who signed with Iowa State University to play football. “It’s like a tradition, now. There’s a lot of doubt that goes on in the city against Dunbar. We take that as motivation and use it to our advantage.”
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1 hour ago, Perspective said:
Jambun, I struggle with this issue. I think we all agree that the kid who hit the official deserves to be punished (although we might quibble over the severity of the punishment and who dishes out the punishment). And while I understand that football is the epitome of a team game, unless there is some evidence that the coaches promoted the behavior, I struggle with making the other 50-70 players on this team pay for his crime. I can see both sides of the argument. The player got penalized and then ejected for his (apparent) late hit on the QB and whatever he did or said to the ref immediately after that. Another penalty obviously should have been assessed against the kid/team when the kid ran back onto the field and hit the ref. (Question for you Jambun: when a player is ejected from a Florida high school football game, does he have to leave the bench area? If so, should the officials have waited until that happened before resuming play? Either way, should the officials have called the game right then and there? Under what authority?).
Again, without evidence that the school/coaches/team promoted an atmosphere of disrespect towards officials that could, in any way, help to explain the kid's actions, I'm just not sure that the collective seasons of all the other kids should end because of the actions of one. Put yourself into the shoes of the other hundred plus parents.
On the flip side, I guess you can make the argument that it's no different than a kid cheating in school or lying about his residence and then being declared ineligible. Typically, the team suffers the penalty when it has to forfeit games.
So, what say you others out there? Even the guy providing commentary noticed that the coaches and teammates of the wrongdoer handled themselves in the right way. Suspend the kid indefinitely/for the rest of his high school career. Charge him with a crime. Regardless of the kid's punishment, should the team be prohibited from continuing to play? What if the kid had waited until after the game before he charged the official? What if he had waited until the next day, tracked him down, followed him to The Home Depot and then charged him right in front of all the power tools? Would your opinion be the same?
I read up on this game, which took place last year. The kid who headbutted the ref was from Dunbar High, a historically black high school in Dayton, OH. It was Dunbar's first game of the season against private school Roger Bacon from Cincinnati. A little less than midway through the second quarter, and Dunbar already had 12 flags thrown against it....and were losing by 15 points The article stated that Bacon's coach was told before the game it would be "tightly officiated." I wonder why?
Dunbar was badly beaten by a private school in the opener the prior season. In Ohio, there is quite a bit of tension between private schools and public schools because private schools have done a lot of winning there, going back to the Archbishop Moeller days.
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10 minutes ago, MarcusFL said:
Its time for these Privates to all play against each other in their own division. Time to level the playing field.
State Championship 2A University Christian vs Champagnat Catholic
3A Trinity Christian Academy vs Chaminade-Madonna
4A Jacksonville Bolles vs Cardinal Gibbons
State Semi Final 5A Jesuit vs American Heritage Plantation
7A Bloomingdale vs St Thomas Aquinas
I would encourage you to search this Forum. There are a lot of threads on this topic. There is not a simple solution. The vast majority of private school football programs in Florida are nowhere near the talent level of the schools on your list.
If there was a 32-team private school playoff, the first round games could be utter annihilation. Imagine St Thomas Aquinas playing Somerset Academy in a first round private school playoff game. As it was, Chaminade-Madonna beat them 52-0.
And amongst the elite private schools, of which there are relatively few, there are substantial differences in school populations. For example, Chaminade-Madonna has about one quarter the population of St Thomas Aquinas, so its potentially an unfair fight.
We have a somewhat unique situation in Florida concerning our private schools.
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14 minutes ago, Nulli Secundus said:
Fine, remove Orange. They're the newest in the bunch. Dade, Palm Beach, Hillsborough, Polk
Dade-yes
Palm Beach-no
Hillsborough-yes
Polk-yes
Which Are the Best Counties in the State Finals?
in The Huddle
Posted
Now I understand. I guess the Lakeland players' eyes got tired in the second half against TB Tech
It must be a Naught thing.