Beek

LBV has begun to turn the corner on winning. Last year they went 18 points for and 481 against. 1/2 way through this year they are 71 for and 130 against. They barely lost to Windermere. They have lost by 1 score 3 times this year. Hopefully their first win wont be us! But Colonial looks like a possibility. 

LBV has begun to turn the corner on winning. Last year they went 18 points for and 481 against. 1/2 way through this year they are 71 for and 130 against. They barely lost to Windermere. They have lost by 1 score 3 times this year. Hopefully their first win wont be us! But Colonial looks like a possibility. 

I get that. But having never played a game why should that team be ranked above any team who has played. Even the worst team in the state has played a game and has established something. So how can a team who has never played be given a ranking that is about 150 places above the bottom?

Thank you very much Beek. I am glad to read that there is an official who is willing to help and explain certain rules interpretations, and if you ever have any questions for me, please feel free to ask. 

Not to be argumentative but hold on a second!
We are one of those "glorified JV teams" by your assumption and rankings and strength of schedule. We practice 3 hours every day, just like the best teams, we go over film with the players for hours. We work in the weight room. We have detailed practice plans. We have individual instruction, Team time, 7v7, inside run and all of those sessions. I dont know how anyone can say we dont practice as hard as any other team. Do we have the skill or quality of players as all of those so called "harder preparation" teams. It is not for the lack of coaching or player effort. It just comes down to heart and will and actual player quality. We dont have the physical size on the line. That is not a lack of preparation, It is just who we are. We dont have a #1 quarterback, Does that make us a less prepared team? 
And yes we have put a running clock on a opponent this year. But that doesnt make them a "Glorified JV team". Last time we played them they beat us! Kids graduated and transferred. A bad scenario for them a good one for us. But i am willing to bet, those coaches are working just as hard today as they were when they beat us. 
 

I believe that once a large public high school goes to 8 man it will be the death of their program. A small private school or possibly a very small public school may make that model work for them. Locally there is a 8 man school who lost their best receiver and qb to 2 different public 11 man programs. both of these kids are difference makers in their respective programs. In all honesty a bad 11 man program will most likely be a bad 8 man program too. Its not just missing 3 players on the field would make the difference. Keeping the school size perspective the same. A bad 8A public school going 8 man, may have success versus a small public school fielding a 8 man team most likely because its all they have. But what are you succeeding in?  Would make more sense for their being a lower tier regional championship as suggested for those teams who cant make it in the state series. Let the proper 8 man programs play 8 man programs and have a balanced series for them. 

I believe that once a large public high school goes to 8 man it will be the death of their program. A small private school or possibly a very small public school may make that model work for them. Locally there is a 8 man school who lost their best receiver and qb to 2 different public 11 man programs. both of these kids are difference makers in their respective programs. In all honesty a bad 11 man program will most likely be a bad 8 man program too. Its not just missing 3 players on the field would make the difference. Keeping the school size perspective the same. A bad 8A public school going 8 man, may have success versus a small public school fielding a 8 man team most likely because its all they have. But what are you succeeding in?  Would make more sense for their being a lower tier regional championship as suggested for those teams who cant make it in the state series. Let the proper 8 man programs play 8 man programs and have a balanced series for them. 

8-man is intended for low enrollment, low participation schools.  I know for sure some of the schools on that list have enough players to even field a JV squad so their challenges are not due to participation but rather *transfers out* and demographics of their school zone.

Beek, you make some very good points and I greatly appreciate your 'perspective.' 
If I understand you correctly, you believe that once a program goes to 8-man, there's no chance they'll ever make it back to 11-man because anyone who's serious about playing the sport, simply won't come there to play.  I wonder if there are any examples of 8-man programs that have had success, made the switch to 11-man, and then had success in 11-man?  
Another "I wonder" question:  are there any examples of kids who play 8-man being recruited/offered scholarships? 
Just curious.  
 

Somewhat rhetorical question for the crowd:  when we hear the phrase "School Choice," we've come to learn that means "the student gets to choose what school they want to go to."    Well, with respect to the debate in this thread, why can't "school choice" mean that a school gets to choose whether they want to play 8-man, 11-man or no football at all?  Or why can't a school choose whether they want to compete for a state championship or just play the equivalent of intramural sports against like-minded schools?  
One poster suggested that kids would choose to leave schools that play 8-man instead of 11-man.  My guess is those same kids already are leaving schools that play 11-man, but play it very badly, for schools that play 11-man, but play it better.   At least, that's what the kids who prioritize their high school football experience are doing. 
I need to give this topic some more thought . . .
 
 

Kids dont see division 1 or for that matter any college football on Saturday playing 8 man football. They all have dreams of playing college football. If your school only offered 8 man football it would predetermine that school to be a low level program who cannot get players recruited. As far as kids leaving. That is up to the program to fix itself and offer a product that will attract players and keep those who are on campus. Many schools of thought are keep replacing the coach until someone comes in and wins and magically the ship will be righted and the kids will stay and all will be right in the world. Those coaches seldom if never come. A prospective coach for a perennial loosing school is usually a brand new head coach looking to establish himself, a head coach on rebound or looking to move up the ladder who thinks he can come in and change the culture and fix everything. (those guys get fed up after seeing that changing the culture isnt going to happen. They dont want to hurt their employability further so the move on before their career damage is done). Or you get the washed out coach who is ending their career and will take the paycheck until the school fires them and moves on to the next guy. Please understand these are the stereotypes, not saying anything personally about anyone. 
So how do you turn around a program like these ones you mention? Going to 8 man football in my opinion is not the answer. 8 man football should be reserved for very low enrollment schools. I couldnt see any florida public schools fitting that model. i can tell you what we are doing here. But only time will tell if this is successful. 

I feel a 8 man decision would be the death of many of these programs. Kids simply would use their "school of choice" decision to transfer somewhere else. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer scenario. No matter what any one thinks or says. Football is a 11 man sport for the kids. They do not watch 8 man football on Saturday or Sunday. They will not believe that they could be recruited to play for a 11 man team on saturday. So the result would be even worse for those programs that you suggest
2 years ago it was brought up by a bunch of independent fhsaa teams, that wanted to start an independent league within fhsaa and play for a so called independent championship. That idea was immediately shut down citing the bylaws. These are mostly all of the teams that we are speaking of and the ones that you suggested. Some of them went back into districts because of the suburban-metro-rural classifications now. Some of them feel they might have a fighting chance with this scenario. Only time will tell. 
 

Not to be argumentative but hold on a second!
We are one of those "glorified JV teams" by your assumption and rankings and strength of schedule. We practice 3 hours every day, just like the best teams, we go over film with the players for hours. We work in the weight room. We have detailed practice plans. We have individual instruction, Team time, 7v7, inside run and all of those sessions. I dont know how anyone can say we dont practice as hard as any other team. Do we have the skill or quality of players as all of those so called "harder preparation" teams. It is not for the lack of coaching or player effort. It just comes down to heart and will and actual player quality. We dont have the physical size on the line. That is not a lack of preparation, It is just who we are. We dont have a #1 quarterback, Does that make us a less prepared team? 
And yes we have put a running clock on a opponent this year. But that doesnt make them a "Glorified JV team". Last time we played them they beat us! Kids graduated and transferred. A bad scenario for them a good one for us. But i am willing to bet, those coaches are working just as hard today as they were when they beat us. 
 

Not to be argumentative but hold on a second!
We are one of those "glorified JV teams" by your assumption and rankings and strength of schedule. We practice 3 hours every day, just like the best teams, we go over film with the players for hours. We work in the weight room. We have detailed practice plans. We have individual instruction, Team time, 7v7, inside run and all of those sessions. I dont know how anyone can say we dont practice as hard as any other team. Do we have the skill or quality of players as all of those so called "harder preparation" teams. It is not for the lack of coaching or player effort. It just comes down to heart and will and actual player quality. We dont have the physical size on the line. That is not a lack of preparation, It is just who we are. We dont have a #1 quarterback, Does that make us a less prepared team? 
And yes we have put a running clock on a opponent this year. But that doesnt make them a "Glorified JV team". Last time we played them they beat us! Kids graduated and transferred. A bad scenario for them a good one for us. But i am willing to bet, those coaches are working just as hard today as they were when they beat us. 
 

Not to be argumentative but hold on a second!
We are one of those "glorified JV teams" by your assumption and rankings and strength of schedule. We practice 3 hours every day, just like the best teams, we go over film with the players for hours. We work in the weight room. We have detailed practice plans. We have individual instruction, Team time, 7v7, inside run and all of those sessions. I dont know how anyone can say we dont practice as hard as any other team. Do we have the skill or quality of players as all of those so called "harder preparation" teams. It is not for the lack of coaching or player effort. It just comes down to heart and will and actual player quality. We dont have the physical size on the line. That is not a lack of preparation, It is just who we are. We dont have a #1 quarterback, Does that make us a less prepared team? 
And yes we have put a running clock on a opponent this year. But that doesnt make them a "Glorified JV team". Last time we played them they beat us! Kids graduated and transferred. A bad scenario for them a good one for us. But i am willing to bet, those coaches are working just as hard today as they were when they beat us. 
 

Not to be argumentative but hold on a second!
We are one of those "glorified JV teams" by your assumption and rankings and strength of schedule. We practice 3 hours every day, just like the best teams, we go over film with the players for hours. We work in the weight room. We have detailed practice plans. We have individual instruction, Team time, 7v7, inside run and all of those sessions. I dont know how anyone can say we dont practice as hard as any other team. Do we have the skill or quality of players as all of those so called "harder preparation" teams. It is not for the lack of coaching or player effort. It just comes down to heart and will and actual player quality. We dont have the physical size on the line. That is not a lack of preparation, It is just who we are. We dont have a #1 quarterback, Does that make us a less prepared team? 
And yes we have put a running clock on a opponent this year. But that doesnt make them a "Glorified JV team". Last time we played them they beat us! Kids graduated and transferred. A bad scenario for them a good one for us. But i am willing to bet, those coaches are working just as hard today as they were when they beat us. 
 

I touched on this in a different thread.
1. The white cap assigned to this game had been previously banned from officiating at this school. The assigner was aware and had kept him from coming many times in the past. I wont go into why unless you feel it is important to this discussion.
2. The no calls on egregious holding and pass interference calls was horrible. But it went both ways. The only time a holding call was thrown was when the play went for any type of yardage. Again I agree a holding call can be had on every play, So why choose  only the plays when a team has a gain to negate that play only. 
3. invisible flags thrown. on 2 separate occasions when we had a 40+ yard gain a flag was thrown post play down field near the end of the play. The first time when asked what it was for I was told holding by a lineman 50 yards away from where the official was standing. The flag wasnt thrown by the referee who was near those players. But the one who was 50 yards away from where the suspected holding was called (had a coach in his ear!). The referee was asked who was in position to make that call. He just picked up the flag 50 yards away and walked back and marked off the holding without a place marker flag for where the penalty supposedly occurred.   The second occasion was a similar situation where our receiver was hit way late out of bounds and the other team was called for the late hit. Then when the officials got together all of a sudden there was a offensive false start call. no flag was thrown and the play continued to its finish which resulted in the defensive penalty. This caused me to waste a time out for clarification. I was told that the official on my sideline, standing directly in front of me dropped a flag for false start (no flag was ever thrown, also shouldn't the play be whistled dead?) But after the conference. the penalty was upheld and the false start was walked off first, then the 15 yard personal foul was applied after that.
4. According to the other teams stats, they were penalized 10 times for 108 yards and us 12 times for 83 yards. The opposing head coach was livid at the officiating as well. He told me that this was the worst officiating he had ever seen. Neither of us had had near these penalties all year combined. 
5. To top this off, the assigner when asked why we only get "B" crews to our games he said that "you are so bad that we wont waste good officials to come to your games" I personally have a friend (not someone who would not call a fair game)who is a white cap in the area he constantly asks for his crew to be assigned to our games. He keeps getting told no and instead gets the game of the week!
If i polled my staff, i am sure I could come up with more scenarios. These are the ones that come to mind first. 
I guess the worst part of this is we are pretty used to this type of officiating. I could write books on the improper officiating I have experienced in my 8 years as a high school coach. The best one yet happened in Polk county. We had a 4th down play the 5 yard line, which was painted was the line to gain. Our back ran the ball and it was placed clearly near the 4 yard line 3 feet past the 5 yard line. The chains were dropped and the official on the sideline signaled 1st down. The opposing coach called a time out and asked for a measurement. Here is where it gets interesting. There was no marker on the chains to tell where the chains were supposed to be. But everyone agreed that the 5 yard line was the line to gain. So the official comes to the sideline and sees a place in the ground where he feels the chains were and decides thats where the mark should be. Picks up the chains and then goes and measures. Obviously the 4 yard line was a foot too short and the ball was turned over on downs. When asking the white cap how that could be. I was told that it wasnt the line judges call to signal first down. And the opposing team, who was operating the chains shouldn't have put them down. So he had to approximate the chains location. Film clearly shows that the 5 yard line was correct. (have to love that)
 
I really never complain more than I feel is what I can get away with without repercussions. Because if i complain too much , it will just come back to me in a bad way. All I ever ask for is the poor officiating is kept even between us and the other team!
On the flip side there is a white cap that has also gone out of his way to help me understand interpretations of the rules. He has contacted me during the following week to apologize for a bad call where he was wrong and admitted it. He has also called me and shown me the rule and explained what we did wrong! To me you cannot be more transparent than that. 

Having just lost to horizon. They are a very well put together team. I do feel that had we not have played in the downpour, granted they had to as well. And we could have capitalized on our 3 red zone trips. The outcome would have been different. Not making excuses. They beat us fair (as the officials could see or not see it) and square. Their running back and qb combo is a force to be reckoned with. I also agree that they could be looking at 7-3 or 8-2.
 
Right now our strength of schedule is a -30.9  But thats who we are!  Started the year at 550 and moved up to 484 so far.   Toho ranked 297 and Horizon 301

Having just lost to horizon. They are a very well put together team. I do feel that had we not have played in the downpour, granted they had to as well. And we could have capitalized on our 3 red zone trips. The outcome would have been different. Not making excuses. They beat us fair (as the officials could see or not see it) and square. Their running back and qb combo is a force to be reckoned with. I also agree that they could be looking at 7-3 or 8-2.
 
Right now our strength of schedule is a -30.9  But thats who we are!  Started the year at 550 and moved up to 484 so far.   Toho ranked 297 and Horizon 301

Having just lost to horizon. They are a very well put together team. I do feel that had we not have played in the downpour, granted they had to as well. And we could have capitalized on our 3 red zone trips. The outcome would have been different. Not making excuses. They beat us fair (as the officials could see or not see it) and square. Their running back and qb combo is a force to be reckoned with. I also agree that they could be looking at 7-3 or 8-2.
 
Right now our strength of schedule is a -30.9  But thats who we are!  Started the year at 550 and moved up to 484 so far.   Toho ranked 297 and Horizon 301

Having just lost to horizon. They are a very well put together team. I do feel that had we not have played in the downpour, granted they had to as well. And we could have capitalized on our 3 red zone trips. The outcome would have been different. Not making excuses. They beat us fair (as the officials could see or not see it) and square. Their running back and qb combo is a force to be reckoned with. I also agree that they could be looking at 7-3 or 8-2.
 
Right now our strength of schedule is a -30.9  But thats who we are!  Started the year at 550 and moved up to 484 so far.   Toho ranked 297 and Horizon 301

In a defensive struggle Osceola did enough to defeat Treasure Coast in a slugfest by the score of 14-5.  They were able to run the ball better against our defensive front than I thought they would but despite giving up some yards they never got into the end zone.  Their initial drive was helped by several offside penalties we committed early to keep the chains moving and got into field goal range and hit it.   On the ensuing kickoff our sophomore star RB Taevion Swint return it for about a  90 yard TD.   Later in the 2nd quarter we put together another good drive and Taevion punched in his second TD.  They got a safety when their punt pinned us at our 1 yard line for the other 2 points.  We only had one good drive in the second half and should have scored our 3rd TD on a short slant, but our receiver bobbled the ball and allowed the defender to strip it from him for an INT in the end zone.  No more scoring in the second half.  Offensively we were inconsistent throughout the game but I think their defense had alot to do with that.  It was your typical UGLY WIN, but a win nevertheless against a team most on this forum picked to win the game against us.  QB position still in flux as both were given opportunities throughout the game to earn the job and neither seemed to be the clear winner. On to the next game against a strong Sanford Seminole team that some didn't feel would dominate Sarasota Riverview but simply blow them out 48-0.

Poinciana has 2 d1 prospects at this moment. One or 2 others may have a d1 offer by the end of the year!  These wont be Big D1's , but d1 anyway

Somehow, Poinciana got our game in. Basically it was because we were so far south of Orlando. We had a long lightning delay with about a minute to go in the first half. But we waited it out and finished the game.  Poinciana 28- Avon Park 16

Much appreciated. I really want to say something about the kids we had transfer or move in to our school. The 5 players who previously played for or went to Osceola who are now on our roster have the best character of any kids I have had in the 9 years I've been at Poinciana. Their demeanor, attitudes and being a non selfish team player are some of the best attributes I have ever seen. You guys build quality student-athletes. Not just a bunch of thugs who play football. I know these kids may have not been a big loss to your program. But it was defiantly a big gain for our program.  We also had a Quarterback from a state final four team from NC move into our zone in the last moment. What a great surprise that was!  
We now have to get them used to playing with each other and the other players on our roster. We have 17 starters who were not on our team from last fall. Kids who moved in, some transfers in and kids who worked on their academics and made it back from poor grades from covid. We played sloppy last night. We made mistakes. We were even down 16-14 with 8 minutes to go. Avon park is no joke, they are a good team. They drove us down the field methodically. But our kids kept on working and the result shows.