Ray Icaza
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Posts posted by Ray Icaza
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6 minutes ago, Dan in Daytona said:
No malice intended. Well... not a gambling man myself, but surely the home team TC is the favorite. Being a Daytona boy, Deland was always the enemy. Baseball, football, basketball, or track, it didn't matter. Getting robbed over there by the Ref's was to be expected, the norm. (Jambun excluded :) For years and years Bulldog87 and I threw team and personal insults back and forth on Rival's FlaVarsity message board. I'd like to say "our maturity" stopped the feud, but when Deland's football team went through 8-10 head coaches in about a decade and a half and their wins disappeared, so did he. That's my version, his might be a little different
Feelings are mutual regarding malice as well as gambling. If I were a gambling man, I would have to go against my heart and put my money on TC despite the fact I will be pulling for Deland for the simple reason of cheering for our geographical region. Looking at the top predictors left for the Nolebull picks, they seem to be leaning heavily towards TC which is why they have proven to be the most accurate during the regular season.
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8 hours ago, Dan in Daytona said:
The author has reread the original post and the two follow up responses before your "love" (Deland) comment. Please allude to where any love or favoritism toward Deland was suggested ? No hater here !
No hate implied my friend as I have reread my post in this thread and ask you to allude where that is coming from. Outside of this thread most have seem to given the edge to Deland before even the matchup had materialized, thus my comment. The title to your post "TEACHER vs STUDENT" and its consequent follow-up of MASTER vs APPRENTICE in particular, in my simple view implies an advantage of one over the other. Your questioning my response now shows that wasn't your intent and I can appreciate that just like the respect I described for Coach Darlington. With all that said it will now be quite interesting to see the picks and consequently the results.
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3 hours ago, Drogo said:
Maybe people feel coaching favors Deland, although all of the factors you stated definitely are in TC’s favor.
That element is certainly important and Coach Darlington has the rings, but my opinion after playing TC over the last several years in both regular season plus playoff games is Coach Jones is also excellent.
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Not quite sure why Deland seems to getting the love in this matchup. Can they win the game? Absolutely!! Is it likely? That is a whole other question as TC has the better SOS, the higher MaxPrep rankings and finally HOME FIELD advantage. It will be a 2 hour + road trip for Deland and that usually isn't a plus in your column when you have to get off that bus to play a physical team in their backyard. All I am saying is it will be no easy task.
- KeemD321, Cat_Scratch, JDHoss and 1 other
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Based on the Orlando Sentinel reporting, it appears that RB Isaiah Thomas (1000+ yds) was a very important missing piece in their offensive attack. He was their homerun hitter all year on the ground and got injured in the Boone game the previous week. Combine that with the fact Mandarin was known for an excellent secondary all year and they forced two INT's, one which was returned for a TD. Turns out Noah Grubbs was not enough by himself to carry them to victory simply relying on the aerial attack. Losing "SPECIAL" players against top-flight teams is hard to overcome. Did not watch the game, so hopefully someone that was there can provide you some additional insight.
- Cat_Scratch, DarterBlue2 and KeemD321
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8 minutes ago, JDHoss said:
Thought Treasure Coast was the more physical team last night, particularly on the DL. If not for Aronson's scrambles and the TC fumble around the Vero 10, the game wouldn't have been as close as it was.
Seems like Vero was having some success running the ball with Osby and probably should have leaned on that a little more to relieve pressure on the QB when he was dropping back to throw. Sacks, negative plays, penalties, etc... derailed several offensive possessions. I do agree with you that it appeared Vero actually had more athletic talent than TC, but all for naught as they are tough to beat, particularly at home.
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3 hours ago, Vero Indian said:
At the same time, we haven't beaten TC at South County in four years
Seems like a powerful reason for Vero to schedule more than the usual 2-3 road games each and every year if they want more success in the playoffs. They very seldom beat teams of equal caliber/talent away from home. If the goal is to collect extra revenue each and every year, it sounds like the HC has decided which road to take.
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Vero has been the standard bearer in that region for decades with FP Central challenging them some moons ago. However, over the past 5-6 years TC has built an excellent program like Vero has with work ethic, toughness, discipline and execution. Should be a great matchup with the fact that Vero won't be the shoo-in like in years past. They will have to earn it on the road. Good Luck to your Indians.
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7 hours ago, Longtime Observer said:
I've never denied going by skyway. That account was banned because I said a bad word to jambun. I don't recall saying Lakeland would win every game by 40.
The schedule you played last year also didn't lead to extra improvement beyond what you'd have gotten with a more modest schedule. It only produced a few losses last year, and a seven loss season this year. Again, and regardless of intentions or assumptions, the only benefit Osceola got/will get from all of the losses is more name recognition and "exposure" to players who may be looking to transfer to a school with opportunities (like, say, a QB from north Florida).
Skyway boasted before the official start of last season since Lakeland easily handled Venice in the spring game and then got over a dozen quality transfers from Lake Gibson, Kathleen, Bartow, Auburndale and others the outcome for that state championship was predetermined and they would running clock everyone, except CAI. The only team that would even put up a decent fight. I disputed that then, like I dispute your theories now and guess what? You were wrong as CAI got blasted and we did not. As far as the kid from N. FL, I have spoken to his father dozens of times and he told me exactly why they transferred here and the scheduled had nothing to do with it. In any event, that turned out to be so beneficial and probably a reason for our slow start out of the gate this season. So, if you are Skyway, you were full of BS last year and it appears that you haven't changed except for the name.
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1 hour ago, Longtime Observer said:
Going 4-7 last year didn't help TC. Playing big names may have helped "attract" more players. But, most of all, what happened is Osceola was way down; Seminole, Jesuit and Vero Beach flipped to home games this season; Chaminade dropped off the schedule. TC fared worse against a lesser STA team and hasn't won any big playoff games yet anyway.
GOT IT! It really isn't about the schedule, rather home field advantage. Now why didn't I think of that?
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1 hour ago, Longtime Observer said:
Can you share the post where I said anything about winning every game by 40?
I've criticized *every single coach*, including Lakeland's current coach, for having the mistaken idea that playing a bunch of powerhouses improves a team more than a more sensible schedule. At no point have I alleged that my view is a majority view: I hear and read the rhetoric about scheduling super tough. I don't accept the ad populum argumentation as valid.
Much of what ALL programs do-including scheduling big games- is aimed at, OK, "attracting" top talent. I don't believe your staff doesn't care whether players want to play at Osceola or not. They want them to want to play at Osceola. They understand that other Orlando-area powers might be more appealing to players and families, and they want to have an answer for that. So, scheduling tough games is one thing they can do along those lines.
You seem to interpret everything I say through some sort of cynical filter. It's pretty weird.
Unless you are admitting that Longtime Observer went by the pseudo-name of Skyway last year on this forum, I never accused you of the level of Lakeland dominance last year. Thanks for admitting, most coaches disagree with your scheduling theory and the fact your criticism includes the Lakeland HC does nothing to support your theory. You conveniently ignored the "FACT" that last year we potentially could have won every game on that so-called gaunlet while still holding the belief that we would have benefited by having a "MORE SENSIBLE" schedule whatever the hell that means. Or the reason we chose to schedule some of the best teams in the state........because we knew we were one of the best teams in the state. As far as attracting talent from this schedule, I guess your reasoning is after all these years of being in the playoffs we finally figured out just last year we needed to schedule a gaunlet to get players. What a genius idea. I have no cynical filter, simply don't agree with your theory and tried to simply convey that no amount of your Mumbo jumbo will change my mind.
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2 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:
This whole discussion about scheduling began because of our record this year. The so-called "GAUNLET SCHEDULE" we signed up for last year, to get these teams we had to make a 2 year commitment which I have previously alluded to. We knew last year we could compete with anybody and felt we had a chance to win "EVERY GAME" on that schedule. As it turned out, we lost to a total of 3 teams on that schedule of 10 games; an overtime loss to Seminole by 1 in OT which we should have won in regulation had it not been for a missed extra point. Then a 3 point loss at Lakeland, mind you a ghost from our past known as Skyway claimed they would beat everyone by 40, including us. I laughed at him knowing we could win and they not only wouldn't win by 40, but they wouldn't get 40. This was all posted on this site last year for everyone to see, so it should be obvious to anyone with a functioning brain those 2 games were winnable. Lastly, we committed 6 or 7 turnovers at Jones uncharacteristically and lost another game we clearly were the better team. It happens. Thinking ahead to this year when that scheduling was decided, we felt we were blessed with a great incoming freshmen class of 2026 (which happens to be correct) and knew it would be tougher to navigate but the talent would be there to compete although not as confident we could win them "ALL" like the previous year. For a myriad of reasons without boring you with them all, we lost more games than we would have liked. Our HC does participate on this forum at times and I know he would echo my sentiments that he has no regrets regarding the scheduling which will only serve these sophomores that carried a monster load to better next year. The other missing element in all this was the "SUPPOSED" added incentive called STRENGTH of SCHEDULE", which didn't play as big a role as we thought it would. With FHSAA discussions underway for next year, the mindset just as always is to do what we feel benefits us the most and best prepares us for a championship which is always our goal. Each HC for FL schools decides how the scheduling can help achieve that goal depending on the level of talent, ability to compete, etc... and thus choose different routes to their desired goal. Someone that knows little about our team wanting to criticize or HC for his decisions because you know better is asinine for the simple fact you know little.
By the way, isn't it ironic that TC had that "GAUNLET" schedule last year that everyone was second guessing them on as they ended the season 4-7, identical to us this year. Now with a heavy senior class returning against that "GAUNLET" schedule they are sitting at 8-2 poised to challenge for a state championship. Congrats TITANS!!
- VeniceIndianFan, Cat_Scratch and 181pl
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11 hours ago, Perspective said:
I can see both sides of this issue. In theory, I think you try to schedule at least one team that you suspect is either better than you are or that will play a style similar to the team that will stand in the way of a title run.
That said, I pulled out the two quotes above for a reason: while it may go on, I find it troubling that people talk openly about "recruit[ing] better players," and "recruiting this off-season." Recruiting is illegal. It's against the rules. Period.
Longtime Observer, I'm not picking on you. Others have said it, too, in other threads. You just happened to say it in this thread. That said, if you know the team you support is openly recruiting (and not just attracting transfers because of the success they've had), you're supporting the wrong team.
This whole discussion about scheduling began because of our record this year. The so-called "GAUNLET SCHEDULE" we signed up for last year, to get these teams we had to make a 2 year commitment which I have previously alluded to. We knew last year we could compete with anybody and felt we had a chance to win "EVERY GAME" on that schedule. As it turned out, we lost to a total of 3 teams on that schedule of 10 games; a loss to Seminole by 1 in OT which we should have won in regulation had it not been for a missed extra point. Then a 3 point loss at Lakeland, mind you a ghost from our past known as Skyway claimed they would beat everyone by 40, including us. I laughed at him knowing we could win and they not only wouldn't win by 40, but they wouldn't get 40. This was all posted on this site last year for everyone to see, so it should be obvious to anyone with a functioning brain those 2 games were winnable. Lastly, we committed 6 or 7 turnovers at Jones uncharacteristically and lost another game we clearly were the better team. It happens. Thinking ahead to this year when that scheduling was decided, we felt we were blessed with a great incoming freshmen class of 2026 (which happens to be correct) and knew it would be tougher to navigate but the talent would be there to compete although not as confident we could win them "ALL" like the previous year. For a myriad of reasons without boring you with them all, we lost more games than we would have liked. Our HC does participate on this forum at times and I know he would echo my sentiments that he has no regrets regarding the scheduling which will only serve these sophomores that carried a monster load to be better next year. The other missing element in all this was the "SUPPOSED" added incentive called STRENGTH of SCHEDULE", which didn't play as big a role as we thought it would. With FHSAA discussions underway for next year, the mindset just as always is to do what we feel benefits us the most and best prepares us for a championship which is always our goal. Each HC for FL schools decides how the scheduling can help achieve that goal depending on the level of talent, ability to compete, etc... and thus choose different routes to their desired goal. Someone that knows little about our team wanting to criticize our HC for his decisions because you know better is asinine for the simple fact you know little. Final Point to address your concerns Perspective. We have never considered devising a schedule to help you "RECRUIT"! More idiocy.
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2 hours ago, JDHoss said:
We went to this one last night. The most shocking thing to me was how well TC kept the Swint kid bottled up, as well as the rest of the Kowboy offense. They just dominated the LOS and never let him get the edge. On a side note, how sad of a crowd was that last night? I'd say somewhere between 300-400 there. We're going back to Tennessee for Thanksgiving. On that weekend, across the border in my old Virginia hometown, they will likely be playing for the regional championship. It'll be 2 schools with enrollments of around 450 students, but there will be around 4K people in the stands armed with air horns and cowbells, as well as the stadium's train horn. It will be electric. I have no desire to move back there, but I wish I could bottle up some of that atmosphere and put it into the water at the schools down here.
It wasn't so much they bottled up Swint as it may as well been Dalvin Cook they bottled up when the OL stunk the place up. But you are spot on regarding crowds at most FL schools anymore, even with 2800 students they get pitiful support. We got more fans 40 years ago with a fraction of the population as we do today. Very sad.
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3 minutes ago, Longtime Observer said:
Sheesh. Tough crowd here!
I'm stating that coaches are mistaken for thinking they get an extra, special boost in improvement from playing a bunch of games they're likely to lose. The data-the truth-does not reflect that any such boost is real. It is imagined, the same way it is imagined that "the hot hand" is who should shoot the next shot in basketball. Accepting myths as fact does not necessarily make one 'stupid'. It's just a foolish belief. Foolish beliefs are not rare or unique. You're surely old enough to remember when it was believed that passing the ball was a bad idea, because "when you pass three things can happen and two of them are bad". Or the NFL's long-held belief that athletic QBs couldn't be successful in the NFL, because "the defenses are just too good". Or that playing from the shotgun is something that should be used sparingly, if at all. There are plenty of examples of beliefs and practices that were long held as unquestionable...that are now obsolete.
Gotta give it to you, keep trying to promote a losing cause and repeating the same arguments expecting a different outcome is the definition of .............!!
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19 minutes ago, Longtime Observer said:
I continue to be confused as to why you seem to take my remarks personally. I tried to make it clear that my point applied to my own team as much as yours. And my point is that, regardless of what issues either team faced, the difficult schedule didn't fix any of them. Of course young players getting many games of experience will help them grow and develop. But, that applies to all players. While it's true that a schedule full of complete jokes may not help much, there's a wide range of teams you can schedule that are beatable but also offer valuable experience. Losing games doesn't offer any extra benefit. In fact, it can harm the morale of the team, which can ultimately harm efforts to recruit better players.
There are a few demonstrably false myths that are accepted as unquestionable truth. One of them is the idea that "you have to ride the hot hand". This is a fallacy. Someone who has a season-long shooting percentage of 39% from three, but who's made three straight threes, is actually VERY likely to miss his next shot. Instead, due to belief in fiction, teams are likely to try to go out of their way to get that player the next shot. And another myth is this "iron sharpens iron" idea that scheduling several teams who are going to beat you leads to more improvement than you'd make playing more winnable games.
You may feel it is a personal attack when it is not, just your comments indicate "YOU and ONLY YOU KNOW BEST" and benefits derived from challenging your teams is a "MYTH", a "LIE". Coaches that adhere to my way of thinking would consider your comments a personal attack as they are stupid for believing in that policy. Sorry that your efforts to convince us to think like you do are futile. That really is the bottom line.
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48 minutes ago, Longtime Observer said:
As is the case with my Dreadnaughts, playing super strong teams did absolutely nothing to improve Osceola's team. The biggest myth being perpetuated is that playing super difficult schedules magically transforms teams into upgraded versions of their previous selves. It's a lie. Osceola fared no better (worse, in fact) in a second game against TC months after the first. And Lakeland would fare not better against Norland or SJP than they did two months ago. Sure, the really good teams do expose your weaknesses. But, then what? Currently, midseason player acquisitions are very rare. (Lakeland actually did acquire a player from the Seminole Seminoles during this season, and he had two interceptions last night). The weaknesses producing those losses are still weaknesses, and will remain so until either new players are acquired, or many years of development have occurred.
Our problems had nothing to do with the difficult schedule, as I told you before it was the same as last year and though you claim we aren't as good as last year neither is Lakeland or Seminole or Jones or Rockledge, not even TC. Our OL returned almost intact, but for a variety of reasons underperformed instead of being a strength we could lean on. That complicated matters with an unsettled QB situation for the opening 3 games and as time proved neither was really equipped to run the offense we had implemented. Thus the ineptness against the high level teams on that side of the field ONLY!!! As far as the other benefits of a tough schedule, my view is polar opposite of the nonsense you spout. Probably half of our key starters/contributors where sophomores and I watched them continue to improve against that high level competition as the season progressed which will pay dividends next year. Most freshmen don't get to start at the varsity level, but talented sophomores are much more common and the biggest jump in their development is between their sophomore year and their junior year. In addition, talented teams/players can get too full of themselves for a variety of reasons (mostly listening to the press and others) and that level of competition really tells them where they are. I supposed if I listened to your BS, we could have been 10-0 like Winter Park ended their season and what did that do for them against a middle of the road team like Mandarin last night. Seems to me your LONGTIME OBSERVATIONS are a single year of learning continually repeated over many years. PERIOD!!
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33 minutes ago, Vero Indian said:
So Treasure Coast pretty much playing like they want it like they want the state championship, I was surprised when I saw the score last night
Still don't see them as a state championship caliber team and expect them to struggle with Vero next week and even more so with Deland. They do execute well and play tough defense so you have to go out and beat them as they won't beat themselves.
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11 minutes ago, nolebull813 said:
Insanely tough 1st round opponent. Osceola had a crazy tough Sked. Kudos to all the hard work the kids put in. The coaches have a tough mindset. I like that.
Feel bad for the few seniors we do have on the roster, particularly Jalen Bell who has been outstanding all year at LB, DE, DB or whatever they needed him to do. Don't know what to make of the senior heavy OL that played below expectations all year long and were pitiful tonight. Our kids are always tough minded, but I certainly didn't see that with the offensive line particularly tonight knowing you lose and you're done. Very disappointing, but now coaching staff can clearly see where our deficiencies lie and take appropriate steps to remedy them for next season. I was truly surprised by the hapless performance as talent wise we should not have been dominated in this fashion.
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Have to be honest that deep down inside I was positive we would win this game. How wrong I was!! Props to TC for a well played game, no turnovers, maybe only 2-3 penalties, stayed on schedule on offense and blanked us on defense. Quite the opposite on our side of the ledger as we committed numerous penalties on both sides of the ball, dropped at least 3 short passes, played with little emotion and most of all our offensive line simply stunk the place up. I can't recall the last time the Kowboys have looked and played this poorly, It was truly embarrassing and feel for our fans as well as theirs for having to endure this kind of performance in a playoff game. Time to SHUT UP!!
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As in previous years, I see plenty of blowouts in the first round with a few competitive games with some evenly matched teams. Regardless, time for talking is over and now it's only put up or shut up. PLAYOFFS ARE HERE!!
- Cat_Scratch and DarterBlue2
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2 minutes ago, Longtime Observer said:
What I speculate about or anticipate is something separate from what I think should happen. For reasons others have mentioned, I thought a 4 or 5 game suspension was probable. (A couple of players did get two games as it is). But, the points I made above are worth considering, and hadn't necessarily been considered when I started this thread. I don't see how the events of that night should mean a 1-game suspension for Kathleen players attacking/punching/fighting while Lakeland's pl
Glad you managed to clear that up.
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37 minutes ago, Longtime Observer said:
There are a few things not yet mentioned that are worth considering:
1)There is solid evidence that Kathleen instigated the brawl, when their #42 suddenly sprinted from 10+ yards away to attack Lakeland's #55, and also when they went after #5 after the first wave of fighting.
2) Regardless of whether you agree with #1 above or not, the fact of the matter is Kathleen's players could only be suspended for a maximum of one game, since their season is now over. Did what we watch indicate that Lakeland's players should be suspended for considerably more games than Kathleen's players? Simply because they have the possibility of playing many more games?
3)All punches thrown are not equal. A punch thrown after being charged or attacked by a group is not the same as a punch thrown out of the blue or after a remark.
4) Following guidance provided, both schools took it upon themselves to punish the players in several ways outside of the suspension put forth by the FHSAA. So, the punishment has been much more than just what the FHSAA levied.
In regards to the comparison with soccer, two thoughts come to mind:
1) It seems the suspension was ridiculous, and thus not something that should serve as a precedent for other events.
2) As others have said, there are many more games in a soccer season than in a football season.
Here is something else to consider. Wasn't it you that initiated this thread and speculated a 4 game suspension in your original post, then a season ending suspension in the following one for the players involved. Hey, I don't know what the right punishment should be as I bet there are varying opinions on this. Just odd how you now seem to be defending the one game suspension and I am having a hard time trying to figure out why the change of heart.
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Thanks for the reporting on these bowl games. As "BAD" as these Osceola county HS teams were this year, obviously there are many schools that are much worse.
- KeemD321, nolebull813 and DarterBlue2
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Deland at Treasure Coast ....Teacher vs Student
in The Huddle
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You continue to confuse the argument by looking at the unincorporated areas (uninhabited) areas of our county (Osceola) with the center of our geographical area (Orlando). From Orlando to Port St. Lucie ... 125 miles as opposed to Deland 41 miles. Our news organization that follows HS sports is the Orlando Sentinel, not the TC Palm that reports on your geographical area. Hope that helps clear that up for you.