Final MIAMI CENTRAL 13 VANGUARD 6

[Nulli Secundus]

2 hours ago, SportsFan said:

Wouldn't that be a bit hypocritical since when IMG got BLOWN OUT in a preseason game a few years ago every major ranking service refused to drop them a single spot 

Miami Central still won so why would Central drop but IMG got a free pass on a LOSS

 

1 hour ago, SportsFan said:

Like why are things so inconsistent when it comes to evaluating preseason games where certain teams can get pushed up and celebrated for it but others only get talked about when it's an chance to drag a team down and when they win it's "just a preseason" 

Like what's the deal with the inconsistency and not having a set standard across the board?

The amount of trash "305" nation and coat riders have been talking regarding the world-beaters aka MC has a lot to do with it.  

• Is it fair?  No
• Is it right?  No
• Is it life? YEAH 

Also, highly rated teams are under a microscope.  Everything they do (or not) will be judged and scrutinized.  That comes with the territory.  From a "National" perspective, this game should not have been this close.  

Looks at some of today's headlines and read the articles:

Miami Central SURVIVES for narrow win over Vanguard in Florida high school football action
Miami Central beats Vanguard in preseason opener, 13-6
Vanguard plays tough in loss to Miami Central

[SportsFan]

16 minutes ago, Nulli Secundus said:

 

The amount of trash "305" nation and coat riders have been talking regarding the world-beaters aka MC has a lot to do with it.  

• Is it fair?  No
• Is it right?  No
• Is it life? YEAH 

Also, highly rated teams are under a microscope.  Everything they do (or not) will be judged and scrutinized.  That comes with the territory.  From a "National" perspective, this game should not have been this close.  

By that logic shouldn't that apply to IMG who were given passes when they lost in preseason games before?

Why is IMG (who is the very definition of a national team) not mentioned as a team that drops for actually losing a koc but Central should drop for a close win

[SportsFan]

18 minutes ago, Nulli Secundus said:

 

The amount of trash "305" nation and coat riders have been talking regarding the world-beaters aka MC has a lot to do with it.  

• Is it fair?  No
• Is it right?  No
• Is it life? YEAH 

Also, highly rated teams are under a microscope.  Everything they do (or not) will be judged and scrutinized.  That comes with the territory.  From a "National" perspective, this game should not have been this close.  

First thing that came to mind when I saw this 

[Nulli Secundus]

21 minutes ago, SportsFan said:

By that logic shouldn't that apply to IMG who were given passes when they lost in preseason games before?

Why is IMG (who is the very definition of a national team) not mentioned as a team that drops for actually losing a koc but Central should drop for a close win

When IMG lost, what nationally ranked opponent did they lose to?
Who is this unranked Vanguard team that hung around with nationally ranked MC?

That will be the logic used to justify any movement.

[Longtime Observer]

1 hour ago, SportsFan said:

Wouldn't that be a bit hypocritical since when IMG got BLOWN OUT in a preseason game a few years ago every major ranking service refused to drop them a single spot 

Miami Central still won so why would Central drop but IMG got a free pass on a LOSS

I'm inclined to say, "Welcome Back!". I assume you're referring to one half of a KOC in 2018 where Columbia had a big lead over IMG in the first half? 

[SportsFan]

18 minutes ago, Longtime Observer said:

I'm inclined to say, "Welcome Back!". I assume you're referring to one half of a KOC in 2018 where Columbia had a big lead over IMG in the first half? 

So any different than most Florida teams who only play starters for a half in preseason? Were you at the Miami Central vs vanguard game? How do you know starters played a full game?

And I was referring to the AHP game in 2015 

[cribboy305]

41 minutes ago, SportsFan said:

By that logic shouldn't that apply to IMG who were given passes when they lost in preseason games before?

Why is IMG (who is the very definition of a national team) not mentioned as a team that drops for actually losing a koc but Central should drop for a close win

just as the canes in the 90s early 2000s when it comes to miami sports they love to hate ya, hate to love ya. like Bro said “ITS LIFE”. 

[SportsFan]

23 minutes ago, Longtime Observer said:

I'm inclined to say, "Welcome Back!". I assume you're referring to one half of a KOC in 2018 where Columbia had a big lead over IMG in the first half? 

I was only off the board for less than two weeks 

Is this a common thing here to welcome back posters if they don't get on every week?

[SportsFan]

30 minutes ago, Nulli Secundus said:

When IMG lost, what nationally ranked opponent did they lose to?
Who is this unranked Vanguard team that hung around with nationally ranked MC?

That will be the logic used to justify any movement.

AHP in 2015

My point was more if pollsters are gonna say preseason losses have no impact when IMG loses I'm not seeing why it should be any different for any other program

Either it's applied to all or none but that's why most rankings on a national level are crap because they don't have any consistent standard for rankings and it seems to change week to week what they actually use for their rankings 

[SportsFan]

5 minutes ago, cribboy305 said:

just as the canes in the 90s early 2000s when it comes to miami sports they love to hate ya, hate to love ya. like Bro said “ITS LIFE”. 

Yeah but normally the Miami hurricanes weren't getting trashed for a spring game performance when they were winning national titles 

[Nulli Secundus]

Just now, SportsFan said:

AHP in 2015

My point was more if pollsters are gonna say preseason losses have no impact when IMG loses I'm not seeing why it should be any different for any other program

Either it's applied to all or none but that's why most rankings on a national level are crap because they don't have any consistent standard for rankings and it seems to change week to week what they actually use for their rankings 

To that, I agree.  The unwritten rules should be universal across the board.  Anything else is the textbook definition of a double standard, or if an agenda is involved, BIAS.  

[Longtime Observer]

7 minutes ago, SportsFan said:

So any different than most Florida teams who only play starters for a half in preseason? Were you at the Miami Central vs vanguard game? How do you know starters played a full game?

And I was referring to the AHP game in 2015 

Define "most". Where is the evidence that it is an accurate description of how teams operate KOCs?

I think that each game does have to be considered individually. Some schools- like Lakeland and Armwood- come right out and say they're playing a real game and to win. And you watch the game and there's no doubt that is exactly what they're doing. Other schools come out and agree to play JV and/or 2nd string units for designated quarters. In the case of Miami Central, read the articles and the comments on Scorestream. Then, apply some basic common sense. Is Miami Central going to decide to spend eleven (11) hours on buses round trip...so they can get their JV and 2nd string some practice? GTFO

[SportsFan]

1 minute ago, Longtime Observer said:

Define "most". Where is the evidence that it is an accurate description of how teams operate KOCs?

I think that each game does have to be considered individually. Some schools- like Lakeland and Armwood- come right out and say they're playing a real game and to win. And you watch the game and there's no doubt that is exactly what they're doing. Other schools come out and agree to play JV and/or 2nd string units for designated quarters. In the case of Miami Central, read the articles and the comments on Scorestream. Then, apply some basic common sense. Is Miami Central going to decide to spend eleven (11) hours on buses round trip...so they can get their JV and 2nd string some practice? GTFO

But that's the thing, we don't know how every team treats it. Some teams treat it as a warmup game, some play varsity for a quarter then have JV and freshman team for the other 3 quarters, some play starters and backups mixed in the entire night.

But there is the problem, if we don't know for a fact how can we say how a team treats the game, I've seen powerhouse teams travel hours and still only play for a half and I saw plenty of games last night written up talking about how they played JV the entire second half, I'm not saying that's what happened in Miami Central and vanguard but my point is more how can some pollster make that distinction if they aren't at the game themselves and say one preseason game should hold weight and another shouldn't. Isn't there a reason some rankings services say outright they don't even look at preseason results?

[Nulli Secundus]

13 minutes ago, cribboy305 said:

just as the canes in the 90s early 2000s when it comes to miami sports they love to hate ya, hate to love ya. like Bro said “ITS LIFE”. 

Haters love to hate when you're on top, don't be shocked when those same haters love your stumble and fall.  Not just a Miami thing.  It's Life 

[Longtime Observer]

7 minutes ago, SportsFan said:

AHP in 2015

My point was more if pollsters are gonna say preseason losses have no impact when IMG loses I'm not seeing why it should be any different for any other program

Either it's applied to all or none but that's why most rankings on a national level are crap because they don't have any consistent standard for rankings and it seems to change week to week what they actually use for their rankings 

It is true that the national rankings- there are no polls to my knowledge, outside of a fan-generated "Comp Poll"- are inconsistent and often based on poor or misinformation. If one is a publisher of rankings, and trying to do a good job, they need to look into the specifics and available details about the games involving ranked teams. Did Miami Central really board it's team on buses for about eleven hours of travel time so they could not try to win and just get the backups some practice? What is the evidence they did that? There are multiple articles about the game shared here...

No one is more full of sh*t than Dade county football fans. And for good reason- many, foolishly, get scared of their teams because of all the sh*t talking. They're full of sh*t if they say they rode all the way from Miami to Ocala so they could not try, and play mostly JV or backups. They won 13-6 over a team who isn't favored to win 3-Suburban. Are they capable of better? I'm willing to assume they are capable of better. But, then, if that's a standard we use, we have to use it for everyone. ANY/ALL close, unimpressive wins can be chalked up as illegitimate on the belief that a hypothetical rematch would be different. 

[LakelandGator]

43 minutes ago, Longtime Observer said:

I'm inclined to say, "Welcome Back!". I assume you're referring to one half of a KOC in 2018 where Columbia had a big lead over IMG in the first half? 

Yeah you were able to find that "dung" as well.

[Longtime Observer]

16 minutes ago, SportsFan said:

Yeah but normally the Miami hurricanes weren't getting trashed for a spring game performance when they were winning national titles 

College teams do not play games against other teams in either spring or August. There's some talk that something like that may happen one day, but not yet. So, apples to oranges...

[SportsFan]

11 minutes ago, Longtime Observer said:

Define "most". Where is the evidence that it is an accurate description of how teams operate KOCs?

I think that each game does have to be considered individually. Some schools- like Lakeland and Armwood- come right out and say they're playing a real game and to win. And you watch the game and there's no doubt that is exactly what they're doing. Other schools come out and agree to play JV and/or 2nd string units for designated quarters. In the case of Miami Central, read the articles and the comments on Scorestream. Then, apply some basic common sense. Is Miami Central going to decide to spend eleven (11) hours on buses round trip...so they can get their JV and 2nd string some practice? GTFO

Are we suggesting that any game where a team is traveling more than 3 hours and likely getting a charter bus mean that it's gonna be a full game? I'm asking because I would like to see if there's a set standard for which "preseason games" should be treated as real games so we all know going forward and can apply that to any past present or future games. The biggest problem I see is there usually is no set standard across the board how preseason should be evaluated

[SportsFan]

1 minute ago, Longtime Observer said:

College teams do not play games against other teams in either spring or August. There's some talk that something like that may happen one day, but not yet. So, apples to oranges...

It was a comment made for comical relief, I'm aware that spring games are basically just intersquad scrimmages

[SportsFan]

3 minutes ago, Longtime Observer said:

It is true that the national rankings- there are no polls to my knowledge, outside of a fan-generated "Comp Poll"- are inconsistent and often based on poor or misinformation. If one is a publisher of rankings, and trying to do a good job, they need to look into the specifics and available details about the games involving ranked teams. Did Miami Central really board it's team on buses for about eleven hours of travel time so they could not try to win and just get the backups some practice? What is the evidence they did that? There are multiple articles about the game shared here...

No one is more full of sh*t than Dade county football fans. And for good reason- many, foolishly, get scared of their teams because of all the sh*t talking. They're full of sh*t if they say they rode all the way from Miami to Ocala so they could not try, and play mostly JV or backups. They won 13-6 over a team who isn't favored to win 3-Suburban. Are they capable of better? I'm willing to assume they are capable of better. But, then, if that's a standard we use, we have to use it for everyone. ANY/ALL close, unimpressive wins can be chalked up as illegitimate on the belief that a hypothetical rematch would be different. 

Again this may be true, I wasn't at the game so I can't say for certain how long Miami Central played starters for. My issue is more on how ranking services are never consistent with a standard for how to evaluate these games and if the argument is Miami Central should drop for this performance why hasn't this been applied in the past with other preseason games involving nationally ranked teams

[SportsFan]

4 minutes ago, Longtime Observer said:

College teams do not play games against other teams in either spring or August. There's some talk that something like that may happen one day, but not yet. So, apples to oranges...

I am surprised that hasn't happened yet TBH

[SportsFan]

7 minutes ago, Longtime Observer said:

It is true that the national rankings- there are no polls to my knowledge, outside of a fan-generated "Comp Poll"- are inconsistent and often based on poor or misinformation. If one is a publisher of rankings, and trying to do a good job, they need to look into the specifics and available details about the games involving ranked teams. Did Miami Central really board it's team on buses for about eleven hours of travel time so they could not try to win and just get the backups some practice? What is the evidence they did that? There are multiple articles about the game shared here...

No one is more full of sh*t than Dade county football fans. And for good reason- many, foolishly, get scared of their teams because of all the sh*t talking. They're full of sh*t if they say they rode all the way from Miami to Ocala so they could not try, and play mostly JV or backups. They won 13-6 over a team who isn't favored to win 3-Suburban. Are they capable of better? I'm willing to assume they are capable of better. But, then, if that's a standard we use, we have to use it for everyone. ANY/ALL close, unimpressive wins can be chalked up as illegitimate on the belief that a hypothetical rematch would be different. 

Does USA today not still do a national top 25?

[Nulli Secundus]

7 minutes ago, SportsFan said:

Does USA today not still do a national top 25?

Yes.  The polls (if I remember) are released on Monday or Tuesday.

[Longtime Observer]

8 minutes ago, SportsFan said:

But that's the thing, we don't know how every team treats it. Some teams treat it as a warmup game, some play varsity for a quarter then have JV and freshman team for the other 3 quarters, some play starters and backups mixed in the entire night.

But there is the problem, if we don't know for a fact how can we say how a team treats the game, I've seen powerhouse teams travel hours and still only play for a half and I saw plenty of games last night written up talking about how they played JV the entire second half, I'm not saying that's what happened in Miami Central and vanguard but my point is more how can some pollster make that distinction if they aren't at the game themselves and say one preseason game should hold weight and another shouldn't. Isn't there a reason some rankings services say outright they don't even look at preseason results?

Frequently, we can find out how the teams treat it with a minimum amount of effort. You can read about Lakeland and Armwood playing for real in articles with coaches' quotes prior to the game. And, in games with designated quarters for JV or backups, that is usually announced as well. And, if a portion of the game is designated as JV or backups, the score is not kept, or kept separately from the regular game. 

Again, simple reasoning will point you in the right direction on these games. Miami Northwestern and Orlando Jones didn't get together in a big college stadium in 2022 so the JV and backups could practice. They played to win that game. MNW and fans didn't drive up to Orlando to see the JV and backups. Ditto Jones and Tampa Jesuit this year. If there is substantial travel involved; if two major powers are playing and no mention of designated JV/backup quarters is made; if the coaches of the teams involved come out and say they're playing to win...it's a real game. Yes, it won't count as a win or loss in the record book. But, for purposes of evaluating teams for subjective rankings, games like that have to count to some degree. And, generally, they will serve as an indication of things to come in the season. Central figures to be in trouble at Bishop Gorman, and may well get beat by Norland.

[SportsFan]

1 minute ago, Longtime Observer said:

Frequently, we can find out how the teams treat it with a minimum amount of effort. You can read about Lakeland and Armwood playing for real in articles with coaches' quotes prior to the game. And, in games with designated quarters for JV or backups, that is usually announced as well. And, if a portion of the game is designated as JV or backups, the score is not kept, or kept separately from the regular game. 

Again, simple reasoning will point you in the right direction on these games. Miami Northwestern and Orlando Jones didn't get together in a big college stadium in 2022 so the JV and backups could practice. They played to win that game. MNW and fans didn't drive up to Orlando to see the JV and backups. Ditto Jones and Tampa Jesuit this year. If there is substantial travel involved; if two major powers are playing and no mention of designated JV/backup quarters is made; if the coaches of the teams involved come out and say they're playing to win...it's a real game. Yes, it won't count as a win or loss in the record book. But, for purposes of evaluating teams for subjective rankings, games like that have to count to some degree. And, generally, they will serve as an indication of things to come in the season. Central figures to be in trouble at Bishop Gorman, and may well get beat by Norland.

So in other words if anyone were to do rankings they would need to be able to dig into that information to decide to consider it for ranking purposes right? 

So how would a computer poll be able to make that level of distinction when the computer rankings in general rely on algorithms by taking as many game results as possible to evaluate? So how would someone with a computer rankings be able to evaluate it if they are having to go on a game by game basis to find this information?

I have no dog in this fight I just want to understand the logic applied in this, hell I live in Palm Beach County so it's been a while since we had a team nationally ranked so I usually don't follow those rankings that closely to understand their process