Competitive Balance

[s1nglewing]

Alabama High School Athletic Association passed this a couple months back. Thoughts?

 

http://highschoolsports.al.com/news/article/-4565431954154274290/ahsaa-central-board-approves-competitive-balance-system-for-private-school-sports/

[DisabledAccount]

18 minutes ago, s1nglewing said:

Alabama High School Athletic Association passed this a couple months back. Thoughts?

 

http://highschoolsports.al.com/news/article/-4565431954154274290/ahsaa-central-board-approves-competitive-balance-system-for-private-school-sports/

I will read this later on and get back to you as soon as i can 

[gatorman-uf]

2 hours ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

I will read this later on and get back to you as soon as i can 

Sigh... this is why this board is frustrating.. Just wait then. You don't need to post just to add to your post count.  

As for the actual proposal, it is almost like Alabama reads my posts about the idea of promotion and relegation. Granted I apply my ideas to all teams (public and private), but at least they understand that teams should move up because they are successful to play better competition. I love the idea. I don't know how Alabama schedules their non-football sports, but I like they are sensitive to the issues of girls/boys basketball and soccer. I would prefer them to treat them individually, but I like the fact they showed sensitivity. 

My frustration is that the FHSAA has not tried to equalize the size of classifications at the lower levels. If we put 1A aside, 2A-4A are too small in terms of number of teams, there should be about 40-50 teams. They already do this is sports like Basketball (5A-9A are 85+ teams) (2A-4A are 49+ teams). Yes, I know more teams play basketball instead of football,  but they could still equalize the classes which they have failed to do. 

2A: Less than 440 students (non-Rural Division)
3A: 440-950
4A: 950-1300
5A: 1300-1650

Would more than equalize many of the lower classifications. 

[OldSchoolLion]

2 hours ago, s1nglewing said:

Alabama High School Athletic Association passed this a couple months back. Thoughts?

 

http://highschoolsports.al.com/news/article/-4565431954154274290/ahsaa-central-board-approves-competitive-balance-system-for-private-school-sports/

...thanks for sharing.  The comments after the article are very enlightening.  What's interesting is that Alabama does not have near the "problem" with private schools as do some other states.  In football, private schools have not dominated the state championships. 

It's pretty ironic.  Alabama is one of the most conservative states in the country.  I know folks from there who love to ridicule social justice warriors who complain about and overdramatize societal injustices, yet Alabama is leading the charge to try to "balance" high school football. 

One of the commenters spoke of kids in rural areas having "their hopes ripped away from them."  ...talk about overdramatic!...as if the kids will be scarred for life if they do not win a state championship.  We love to bash the kids for being too "soft" today, but look at how we are trying to protect them from, "gulp," life's unfairness.  And then we wonder why some kids today are quick to cry foul when things do not go their way.  

I think the challenge is that things are just so fluid now with transfers, changing demographics, etc, trying to balance things is like trying to capture lightning in a bottle.  It's one thing if teams are routinely getting destroyed in competition and/or kids are getting hurt.  It's another to whine because things did not go your way for a season or two. 

Even ST Aquinas, as dominant a program as you'll find,, does not absolutely destroy every public school in its path.  One of the commenters had an interesting point.  Certain public schools in Alabama have dominated the hs football scene, but folks do not seem to be as outraged by this. 

     

 

[gatorman-uf]

OldSchoolLion,

I read some of the comments as well. They are some good points made on both sides. I do agree that it doesn't seem to be a problem in football, but most likely is a bigger force in sports like basketball, baseball, softball, volleyball, and soccer. I clicked on past champions in baseball for Alabama and in 2016 and below it looked like the 4 smallest classes were dominated by private schools. I don't know schools well in Alabama, but if I see "Christian" or Academy or Prep in the name, I can make a good assumption that it probably isn't a public school.

The difference that I see is how the state politicians interfere in the running of the state HS Athletic Association. In Alabama, the state legislature pulls strings to ensure a balance that it is tilted towards public schools. In Florida, the exact opposite. Could you imagine a multiplier for private schools here in Florida? Could you imagine a separate classification for private schools? The state legislature would be up in arms and would behead all those in the FHSAA.

We know there are public schools that dominate certain sports Ribault Girls Basketball, Brandon Wrestling, Dillard Basketball all come to mind. Palm Beach Lakes Girls Track and Northwestern Girls Track come to mind, but those are rarity. If you look at girl's volleyball for example, of the teams that have won more than 5 state championships only 3 are public out of the 11. That tells you a good deal of how hard it is to maintain success at a public school vs a private school.

Of the 16 teams that have 3 or more state championship in softball in Florida, 6 are public schools with the top 2 being public schools. Again, I think that it just shows that while a public school can be successful, it is much harder to sustain that success year in and year out compared to the privates. Additionally, I don't think even dominate public schools succeed in multiple sports. You rarely see a dominate football, basketball, and baseball program for example. They might be good in 3, but they aren't winning state championships in all three. With the private schools, you do see that. 

 

[DisabledAccount]

28 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

OldSchoolLion,

I read some of the comments as well. They are some good points made on both sides. I do agree that it doesn't seem to be a problem in football, but most likely is a bigger force in sports like basketball, baseball, softball, volleyball, and soccer. I clicked on past champions in baseball for Alabama and in 2016 and below it looked like the 4 smallest classes were dominated by private schools. I don't know schools well in Alabama, but if I see "Christian" or Academy or Prep in the name, I can make a good assumption that it probably isn't a public school.

The difference that I see is how the state politicians interfere in the running of the state HS Athletic Association. In Alabama, the state legislature pulls strings to ensure a balance that it is tilted towards public schools. In Florida, the exact opposite. Could you imagine a multiplier for private schools here in Florida? Could you imagine a separate classification for private schools? The state legislature would be up in arms and would behead all those in the FHSAA.

We know there are public schools that dominate certain sports Ribault Girls Basketball, Brandon Wrestling, Dillard Basketball all come to mind. Palm Beach Lakes Girls Track and Northwestern Girls Track come to mind, but those are rarity. If you look at girl's volleyball for example, of the teams that have won more than 5 state championships only 3 are public out of the 11. That tells you a good deal of how hard it is to maintain success at a public school vs a private school.

Of the 16 teams that have 3 or more state championship in softball in Florida, 6 are public schools with the top 2 being public schools. Again, I think that it just shows that while a public school can be successful, it is much harder to sustain that success year in and year out compared to the privates. Additionally, I don't think even dominate public schools succeed in multiple sports. You rarely see a dominate football, basketball, and baseball program for example. They might be good in 3, but they aren't winning state championships in all three. With the private schools, you do see that. 

 

Columbia about to get their second softball title this year and should have last year 

 

Also if i recall correctly they do have a private school enrollment multiplier 

[OldSchoolLion]

 

6 hours ago, gatorman-uf said:

OldSchoolLion,

I read some of the comments as well. They are some good points made on both sides. I do agree that it doesn't seem to be a problem in football, but most likely is a bigger force in sports like basketball, baseball, softball, volleyball, and soccer. I clicked on past champions in baseball for Alabama and in 2016 and below it looked like the 4 smallest classes were dominated by private schools. I don't know schools well in Alabama, but if I see "Christian" or Academy or Prep in the name, I can make a good assumption that it probably isn't a public school.

The difference that I see is how the state politicians interfere in the running of the state HS Athletic Association. In Alabama, the state legislature pulls strings to ensure a balance that it is tilted towards public schools. In Florida, the exact opposite. Could you imagine a multiplier for private schools here in Florida? Could you imagine a separate classification for private schools? The state legislature would be up in arms and would behead all those in the FHSAA.

We know there are public schools that dominate certain sports Ribault Girls Basketball, Brandon Wrestling, Dillard Basketball all come to mind. Palm Beach Lakes Girls Track and Northwestern Girls Track come to mind, but those are rarity. If you look at girl's volleyball for example, of the teams that have won more than 5 state championships only 3 are public out of the 11. That tells you a good deal of how hard it is to maintain success at a public school vs a private school.

Of the 16 teams that have 3 or more state championship in softball in Florida, 6 are public schools with the top 2 being public schools. Again, I think that it just shows that while a public school can be successful, it is much harder to sustain that success year in and year out compared to the privates. Additionally, I don't think even dominate public schools succeed in multiple sports. You rarely see a dominate football, basketball, and baseball program for example. They might be good in 3, but they aren't winning state championships in all three. With the private schools, you do see that. 

 

Below is Maxpreps' latest list of the top 50 high school athletic programs in the U.S.  34 public schools and 16 private schools are represented.    

 http://www.maxpreps.com/news/VUEgQ1kR3UmZ5zrbEMejcg/final-2016-17-maxpreps-cup-standings--st-thomas-aquinas-wins-the-title.htm

States with 2 or more public schools on the list-Georgia(2), Alabama(3), North Carolina(3), Mississippi(2), Virginia(2), New Jersey(2)

States with 2 or more private schools-Kansas(2), Tennessee(2), Georgia(3), Florida(3)

Isn't it interesting that Alabama has 3 public schools on the list(tied for highest number with NC) versus 1 private school, yet they are the state that is leading the charge on this issue of public vs private inequity.   Only 2 southern states do not have a public school on the list-FLORIDA and Louisiana.   

As I have mentioned in other posts, we tend to throw all private schools in one bucket, but not all privates are equal.  Aquinas, Bolles and American Heritage are the 800-pound gorillas.  Outside of them, I am not aware of any other Florida private school which routinely wins state championships in multiple sports-at least boys sports.  Private schools as a whole are not dominating.  THOSE schools and IMG are dominating.       

As examples...Tampa Catholic has won multiple baseball championships, but only one basketball championship and no football championships in over 50 years.  Chaminade-Madonna has won a few football championships, but has never won a baseball or basketball championship in over 50 years. ...not exactly knocking 'em dead.

Below are Florida's top 12-20 winners of state championships in 8 major sports-boys and girls.  I have bolded the private schools.  It demonstrates that public schools can excel or even dominate a sport.  I agree that it is not common for a Florida public school to dominate in multiple sports, but the same can be said for most private schools. 

I think the problem is that our public school athletic programs, as a whole, are potentially lagging (as evidenced by no representation on the Maxpreps top 50 list) and then we have these 3 private schools which are constantly in our face winning titles.  

Aquinas, AHP and Bolles combined to win the following last year:

State Titles: Boys lacrosse, boys cross country, football(2), baseball, boys golf, boys swimming, girls swimming, girls track, girls soccer, girls volleyball, girls tennis

State Runner-up: Boys track, boys cross country, football, girls cross country, girls golf, girls track, softball, girls lacrosse

Georgia had 3 private schools on the Maxpreps top 50 list, but none of those schools won a title or runner-up in football.

One could argue that Florida is the most extreme example of a state with a few private schools who dominate the athletic landscape.  If those 3 schools disappeared today, I doubt anyone in Florida would be complaining much about private school advantage.

I know some have suggested putting the private schools together in a league.  If we put STA, AHP and Bolles together with all of the other private schools, it would be a blood bath.  I don't think that is a viable answer to the "problem."   

It might be interesting to evaluate the common thread(s) of the public school programs who have had great, long-term success...in that sense, maybe we could help bolster our public school programs and make them more competitive.

...one final point....when we look at domination in certain Florida sports, I think we need to consider demographics.  Sports that cost substantial money to play, ie golf, or sports played mostly by Caucasians, ie lacrosse, are never going to be a strong suit in the inner cities.  Kids in the inner cities get exposed to less sports than affluent kids in the suburbs.  In that sense, private schools are at a natural advantage in certain sports and are likely to win more championships regardless of any interventions we make.       

 

 

Florida State Titles Won in Major Sports

Football

Bolles (Jacksonville) 11, St. Thomas Aquinas (Fort Lauderdale) 9, University Christian (Jacksonville) 8, Glades Day (Belle Glade) 7, North Florida Christian (Tallahassee) 7, Glades Central (Belle Glade) 6, Jefferson County (Monticello) 6, Lakeland 6, Pahokee 6, Trinity Christian (Jacksonville) 6, Manatee (Bradenton) 5, Miami Central 5, Washington (Miami) 5, Miami Northwestern 5

Basketball-Boys

Miami 18, Malone 14, Port St. Joe 8, Seabreeze (Daytona Beach) 7, FAMU (Tallahassee) 6, Havana 6, Miami Norland 6, Andrew Jackson (Jacksonville) 5, Arlington Country Day (Jacksonville) 5, Blanche Ely (Pompano Beach) 5, Dillard (Fort Lauderdale) 5, Florida Air (Melbourne) 5, Gainesville 5, Monsignor Pace (Miami) 5, Orlando Christian Prep 5

Basketball-Girls

Ribault (Jacksonville) 10, Dillard (Fort Lauderdale) 9, Laurel Hill 7, South Broward (Hollywood) 6, Paxton 5, Benjamin (North Palm Beach) 4, Clearwater Central Catholic 4, Dr. Phillips (Orlando) 4, Edgewater (Orlando) 4, FAMU (Tallahassee) 4, First Academy (Orlando) 4, Pensacola Catholic 4, P.K. Yonge (Gainesville) 4, Southeast (Bradenton) 4, Washington (Pensacola) 4

Baseball

Key West 11, Westminster Christian (Miami) 11, Tampa Catholic 9 , Avon Park 8, Sarasota 8, Bolles (Jacksonville) 7, Brito Miami Private 7, Tate (Cantonment) 7, Archbishop McCarthy (Southwest Ranches) 6, Monsignor Pace (Miami) 6, Escambia (Pensacola) 5, Loyola (Miami) 5, Lakeland 5, Palatka 5

Softball

Naples 10, Bartow 8, American Heritage (Plantation) 6, Gulliver Prep (Miami) 6, Hollywood Christian 5, Barron Collier (Naples) 4, Palm Beach Gardens 4, St. Thomas Aquinas (Fort Lauderdale) 4, American Heritage (Delray Beach) 3, Canterbury (St. Petersburg) 3, Eagle's View (Jacksonville) 3, Miami Palmetto* 3, Palm Harbor University 3, Pine Castle Christian (Orlando) 3, Trinity Prep (Winter Park) 3, Westminster Christian (Miami) 3,

Wrestling

Brandon 27, South Dade (Homestead) 11, Miami Southridge 7, Cardinal Gibbons (Fort Lauderdale) 5, Oviedo 5, Fort Myers 4, McArthur (Hollywood) 4, Flagler Palm Coast 3, Miami Norland 3, Miami Palmetto 3, Springstead (Spring Hill) 3, Stranahan (Fort Lauderdale) 3, Suwannee (Live Oak) 3

Track & Field-Boys

FAMU (Tallahassee) 13, St. Petersburg 10, Glades Central (Belle Glade) 8, Robert E. Lee (Jacksonville) 7, Miami 7, Port St. Joe 7, Seminole (Sanford) 7, Duval (Jacksonville) 6, Haines City 6, St. Thomas Aquinas (Fort Lauderdale) 6, Clewiston 5, Fletcher (Neptune Beach) 5, Godby (Tallahassee) 5, Maclay (Tallahassee) 5, Miami Northwestern 5, Oak Ridge (Orlando) 5,

Track & Field -Girls

Miami Northwestern 12, St. Thomas Aquinas (Fort Lauderdale) 11, Glades Central (Belle Glade) 10, Oak Ridge (Orlando) 9, Palm Beach Lakes 8, Lakeland Christian 6, Miami Southridge 6, Seminole (Sanford) 6, Trinity Prep (Winter Park) 6, Maclay (Tallahassee) 5, Ribault (Jacksonville) 5, Suncoast (Riviera Beach) 5, American Heritage (Plantation) 4, Holy Trinity (Melbourne) 4

 

 

[DisabledAccount]

I do feel that classifications should be sport by sport basis, while 1 or 2 elite players (for the most part) wont get you state in football, it can in a sport like basketball who only have 5 on the court at once

 

that's why its not very uncommon for a 9A school to lose to a 1A, enrollment doesn't have the same effect in sports like basketball like they do in football

 

there probably are 1a schools who could beat most teams in the highest classes in basketball

 

it would be equivalent of saying Madison county could beat Miami Northwestern in football (I highly doubt it) but Madison could probably beat Miami Northwestern in basketball (how many students do you need to find 5-10 solid players, or 2-3 elite ones if your in a basketball talent rich area??)

[DisabledAccount]

10 hours ago, OldSchoolLion said:

 

Below is Maxpreps' latest list of the top 50 high school athletic programs in the U.S.  34 public schools and 16 private schools are represented.    

 http://www.maxpreps.com/news/VUEgQ1kR3UmZ5zrbEMejcg/final-2016-17-maxpreps-cup-standings--st-thomas-aquinas-wins-the-title.htm

States with 2 or more public schools on the list-Georgia(2), Alabama(3), North Carolina(3), Mississippi(2), Virginia(2), New Jersey(2)

States with 2 or more private schools-Kansas(2), Tennessee(2), Georgia(3), Florida(3)

Isn't it interesting that Alabama has 3 public schools on the list(tied for highest number with NC) versus 1 private school, yet they are the state that is leading the charge on this issue of public vs private inequity.   Only 2 southern states do not have a public school on the list-FLORIDA and Louisiana.   

As I have mentioned in other posts, we tend to throw all private schools in one bucket, but not all privates are equal.  Aquinas, Bolles and American Heritage are the 800-pound gorillas.  Outside of them, I am not aware of any other Florida private school which routinely wins state championships in multiple sports-at least boys sports.  Private schools as a whole are not dominating.  THOSE schools and IMG are dominating.       

As examples...Tampa Catholic has won multiple baseball championships, but only one basketball championship and no football championships in over 50 years.  Chaminade-Madonna has won a few football championships, but has never won a baseball or basketball championship in over 50 years. ...not exactly knocking 'em dead.

Below are Florida's top 12-20 winners of state championships in 8 major sports-boys and girls.  I have bolded the private schools.  It demonstrates that public schools can excel or even dominate a sport.  I agree that it is not common for a Florida public school to dominate in multiple sports, but the same can be said for most private schools. 

I think the problem is that our public school athletic programs, as a whole, are potentially lagging (as evidenced by no representation on the Maxpreps top 50 list) and then we have these 3 private schools which are constantly in our face winning titles.  

Aquinas, AHP and Bolles combined to win the following last year:

State Titles: Boys lacrosse, boys cross country, football(2), baseball, boys golf, boys swimming, girls swimming, girls track, girls soccer, girls volleyball, girls tennis

State Runner-up: Boys track, boys cross country, football, girls cross country, girls golf, girls track, softball, girls lacrosse

Georgia had 3 private schools on the Maxpreps top 50 list, but none of those schools won a title or runner-up in football.

One could argue that Florida is the most extreme example of a state with a few private schools who dominate the athletic landscape.  If those 3 schools disappeared today, I doubt anyone in Florida would be complaining much about private school advantage.

I know some have suggested putting the private schools together in a league.  If we put STA, AHP and Bolles together with all of the other private schools, it would be a blood bath.  I don't think that is a viable answer to the "problem."   

It might be interesting to evaluate the common thread(s) of the public school programs who have had great, long-term success...in that sense, maybe we could help bolster our public school programs and make them more competitive.

...one final point....when we look at domination in certain Florida sports, I think we need to consider demographics.  Sports that cost substantial money to play, ie golf, or sports played mostly by Caucasians, ie lacrosse, are never going to be a strong suit in the inner cities.  Kids in the inner cities get exposed to less sports than affluent kids in the suburbs.  In that sense, private schools are at a natural advantage in certain sports and are likely to win more championships regardless of any interventions we make.       

 

 

Florida State Titles Won in Major Sports

Football

Bolles (Jacksonville) 11, St. Thomas Aquinas (Fort Lauderdale) 9, University Christian (Jacksonville) 8, Glades Day (Belle Glade) 7, North Florida Christian (Tallahassee) 7, Glades Central (Belle Glade) 6, Jefferson County (Monticello) 6, Lakeland 6, Pahokee 6, Trinity Christian (Jacksonville) 6, Manatee (Bradenton) 5, Miami Central 5, Washington (Miami) 5, Miami Northwestern 5

Basketball-Boys

Miami 18, Malone 14, Port St. Joe 8, Seabreeze (Daytona Beach) 7, FAMU (Tallahassee) 6, Havana 6, Miami Norland 6, Andrew Jackson (Jacksonville) 5, Arlington Country Day (Jacksonville) 5, Blanche Ely (Pompano Beach) 5, Dillard (Fort Lauderdale) 5, Florida Air (Melbourne) 5, Gainesville 5, Monsignor Pace (Miami) 5, Orlando Christian Prep 5

Basketball-Girls

Ribault (Jacksonville) 10, Dillard (Fort Lauderdale) 9, Laurel Hill 7, South Broward (Hollywood) 6, Paxton 5, Benjamin (North Palm Beach) 4, Clearwater Central Catholic 4, Dr. Phillips (Orlando) 4, Edgewater (Orlando) 4, FAMU (Tallahassee) 4, First Academy (Orlando) 4, Pensacola Catholic 4, P.K. Yonge (Gainesville) 4, Southeast (Bradenton) 4, Washington (Pensacola) 4

Baseball

Key West 11, Westminster Christian (Miami) 11, Tampa Catholic 9 , Avon Park 8, Sarasota 8, Bolles (Jacksonville) 7, Brito Miami Private 7, Tate (Cantonment) 7, Archbishop McCarthy (Southwest Ranches) 6, Monsignor Pace (Miami) 6, Escambia (Pensacola) 5, Loyola (Miami) 5, Lakeland 5, Palatka 5

Softball

Naples 10, Bartow 8, American Heritage (Plantation) 6, Gulliver Prep (Miami) 6, Hollywood Christian 5, Barron Collier (Naples) 4, Palm Beach Gardens 4, St. Thomas Aquinas (Fort Lauderdale) 4, American Heritage (Delray Beach) 3, Canterbury (St. Petersburg) 3, Eagle's View (Jacksonville) 3, Miami Palmetto* 3, Palm Harbor University 3, Pine Castle Christian (Orlando) 3, Trinity Prep (Winter Park) 3, Westminster Christian (Miami) 3,

Wrestling

Brandon 27, South Dade (Homestead) 11, Miami Southridge 7, Cardinal Gibbons (Fort Lauderdale) 5, Oviedo 5, Fort Myers 4, McArthur (Hollywood) 4, Flagler Palm Coast 3, Miami Norland 3, Miami Palmetto 3, Springstead (Spring Hill) 3, Stranahan (Fort Lauderdale) 3, Suwannee (Live Oak) 3

Track & Field-Boys

FAMU (Tallahassee) 13, St. Petersburg 10, Glades Central (Belle Glade) 8, Robert E. Lee (Jacksonville) 7, Miami 7, Port St. Joe 7, Seminole (Sanford) 7, Duval (Jacksonville) 6, Haines City 6, St. Thomas Aquinas (Fort Lauderdale) 6, Clewiston 5, Fletcher (Neptune Beach) 5, Godby (Tallahassee) 5, Maclay (Tallahassee) 5, Miami Northwestern 5, Oak Ridge (Orlando) 5,

Track & Field -Girls

Miami Northwestern 12, St. Thomas Aquinas (Fort Lauderdale) 11, Glades Central (Belle Glade) 10, Oak Ridge (Orlando) 9, Palm Beach Lakes 8, Lakeland Christian 6, Miami Southridge 6, Seminole (Sanford) 6, Trinity Prep (Winter Park) 6, Maclay (Tallahassee) 5, Ribault (Jacksonville) 5, Suncoast (Riviera Beach) 5, American Heritage (Plantation) 4, Holy Trinity (Melbourne) 4

 

 

how long ago was this lol

 

we play Palatka 2 years ago and we beat them badly, I must have missed when they were good lol 

[OldSchoolLion]

 

11 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

how long ago was this lol

 

we play Palatka 2 years ago and we beat them badly, I must have missed when they were good lol 

Yep-long time ago  Palatka baseball titles  1929, 1963 (A), 1965 (A), 1966 (A), 1975 (3A)

Key West Baseball is an amazing story.  My guess is that they have a lot of community support to pull off what they done.  ...yet another example of a successful sports program with a coach who has been around 20+ years.