FHSAA Classification Proposal for Sports Outside of Football

[Joshua Wilson]

I am here at the FHSAA offices this morning listening in on the latest of the FHSAA Classification Policy for other sports outside of football.

But there is a lot of interest it seems from people on here to know what is going on. I am keeping this on the main forum that way people can keep track of what is going on. 

Follow for updates.

[Joshua Wilson]

FHSAA Executive Director George Tomyn speaking right now about the history of how the classification process has taken place over the years... going all the way back to 1931.

It is indeed a complexed challenge as they are trying to put something together for the other major team sports.

[DisabledAccount]

Something i have suggested that would probably make the idea their talking about more effective is to leave classifications how they are and at the end of the regular season then split teams into top 64 (and another 64 if they feel it's needed)

 

To assign classifications on previous 2 years when so many roster turnovers can happen overnight it's setting some teams up to fail and might create even worse blowouts then some these sports already have 

 

At least if they take rankings at end of season they ensure teams are placed on year to year basis

[Joshua Wilson]

Leveled playing field is one of the biggest issues in the state plus too many classifications as FHSAA's Justin Harrison is reviewing as there are some new members on the FHSAA Board of Directors for the 2018-2019 school year. 

[Joshua Wilson]

2 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Something i have suggested that would probably make the idea their talking about more effective is to leave classifications how they are and at the end of the regular season then split teams into top 64 (and another 64 if they feel it's needed)

 

To assign classifications on previous 2 years when so many roster turnovers can happen overnight it's setting some teams up to fail and might create even worse blowouts then some these sports already have 

 

At least if they take rankings at end of season they ensure teams are placed on year to year basis

That could be something. Hearing their might be something new on the table, but I will wait to find out before I try to even speculate. 

[Joshua Wilson]

Feedback heard so far from member schools in regards to the plan:

- Student Enrollment is a factor

- Keeping districts

- Concerts with the reliability of power rankings

 

[Joshua Wilson]

FHSAA is now proposing to keep districts, but not requiring regular season district games. A MaxPreps power ranking would still be involved to seed a district tournament.

[Joshua Wilson]

They would see the playoffs using the four district champs per each of the 4 regions and they would get a seed 1-4 and then after that they would seed 5-8 using MaxPreps rankings. It would bring the number of classes down to 6 plus rural for a total of 7 overall.

[Joshua Wilson]

No official vote will be taken until the October FHSAA Board of Directors meeting.

[Joshua Wilson]

Board having a discussion right now... this is pretty much a workshop.

[DisabledAccount]

24 minutes ago, Joshua Wilson said:

FHSAA is now proposing to keep districts, but not requiring regular season district games. A MaxPreps power ranking would still be involved to seed a district tournament.

I can live with maxpreps being used for seeding purposes for a District tournament 

 

And i like the idea of going to seeding for all sports like they did for Football but not forcing a team like say Columbia to be forced in with other powerhouses that have far deeper pockets and resources if we have a good 2 year cycle like what could have happened 

[DisabledAccount]

24 minutes ago, Joshua Wilson said:

They would see the playoffs using the four district champs per each of the 4 regions and they would get a seed 1-4 and then after that they would seed 5-8 using MaxPreps rankings. It would bring the number of classes down to 6 plus rural for a total of 7 overall.

If they do decide on that how soon will teams and us fans have to wait to know our new classification placement? 

[gatorman-uf]

I hope they go forward with something like the original plan of ranking teams over a 2 year cycle and then creating districts. I dislike MaxPreps only because if you play in tournaments against Out of State teams and those teams don't put all of their games into MaxPreps, your power ranking will change.

What would be better, is -5% of your student population for each year you aren't in the playoffs. +5% for making the playoffs, +3% for each win over a 10 year period, and then creating classes and districts.

[DisabledAccount]

1 minute ago, gatorman-uf said:

I hope they go forward with something like the original plan of ranking teams over a 2 year cycle and then creating districts. I dislike MaxPreps only because if you play in tournaments against Out of State teams and those teams don't put all of their games into MaxPreps, your power ranking will change.

What would be better, is -5% of your student population for each year you aren't in the playoffs. +5% for making the playoffs, +3% for each win over a 10 year period, and then creating classes and districts.

Why rank on a 2 year cycle when they could just as easily separate teams at the end of the regular season and ensure teams are actually placed correctly 

 

I lost count of how many times I've seen a team have 2 good years then completely cave in,  they need to have things set year to year basis if they truly want to fix the issues we continue to have in the playoffs 

 

[nolebull813]

MAXPREPS??? Are you shitting me? Someone from the FHSAA must be getting free perks or money from maxpreps. That is the a terrible way to to evaluate teams. Those rankings are bogus and littered with misinformation. 

This is the same publication that had 2007 Miami Northwestern ranked 41st in the nation behind a team from Iowa!! This was a national Championship team viewed as one of the best of all time. 

There is a Lakeland High in Washington State and I have seen Lakeland,WA on Florida schedules before. This has got to be the biggest joke ever considered. And that is saying a lot for the circus that is the FHSAA!!!

[OldSchoolLion]

For anyone who is interested, section 1 of the document below describes how Ohio determines playoff opponents.

https://ohsaa.org/Portals/0/Sports/Football/fttourneyrglt.pdf

Am not implying this approach is "right" for Florida...simply that Ohio has a ton of experience with high school football and I bet there was a lot of good thought and difficult lessons learned behind their current approach from which Florida could possibly learn.  

[DisabledAccount]

1 hour ago, nolebull813 said:

MAXPREPS??? Are you shitting me? Someone from the FHSAA must be getting free perks or money from maxpreps. That is the a terrible way to to evaluate teams. Those rankings are bogus and littered with misinformation. 

This is the same publication that had 2007 Miami Northwestern ranked 41st in the nation behind a team from Iowa!! This was a national Championship team viewed as one of the best of all time. 

There is a Lakeland High in Washington State and I have seen Lakeland,WA on Florida schedules before. This has got to be the biggest joke ever considered. And that is saying a lot for the circus that is the FHSAA!!!

If maxpreps is only used for seeding then the effect will be minimal

 

I guess if someone in fhsaa wants to do a point system for all sports like they do football they could try that 

 

I personally think they could work something with every sport that they did with football if they try hard enough 

 

They can guarantee district champs a spot in playoffs and give 4 wild cards per region based on point totals (like football)

 

All they would have to do is figure out the cutoff for the 4 categories of wins when sports like baseball/softball/basketball play anywhere from 20-26 games instead of 10 in football 

[badbird]

5 hours ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

If maxpreps is only used for seeding then the effect will be minimal

 

I guess if someone in fhsaa wants to do a point system for all sports like they do football they could try that 

 

I personally think they could work something with every sport that they did with football if they try hard enough 

 

They can guarantee district champs a spot in playoffs and give 4 wild cards per region based on point totals (like football)

 

All they would have to do is figure out the cutoff for the 4 categories of wins when sports like baseball/softball/basketball play anywhere from 20-26 games instead of 10 in football 

I would take maxpreps over the fhsaa football point system.  Maxpreps sucks but the fhsaa point system swallows

[DisabledAccount]

15 minutes ago, badbird said:

I would take maxpreps over the fhsaa football point system.  Maxpreps sucks but the fhsaa point system swallows

For seeding yeah

 

But i hate the idea of maxpreps determining classifications, especially if it's done on a 2 year cycle before the season

 

I can guarantee you will see worse blowouts if they go through with it

[gatorman-uf]

21 hours ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Why rank on a 2 year cycle when they could just as easily separate teams at the end of the regular season and ensure teams are actually placed correctly 

 

I lost count of how many times I've seen a team have 2 good years then completely cave in,  they need to have things set year to year basis if they truly want to fix the issues we continue to have in the playoffs 

 

I agree with your general idea, but the problem remains that we are having teams like Orlando Christian Prep or Miami Christian play district games that are not even close to competitive. It is not the Columbia's and Suwannee's this is aimed at, it is the OCP and the poor teams that they have to play. 

I agree if we are reducing classification, keeping districts, and not moving teams up based on MaxPreps (or some other ranking system), then I think your idea is the best (as long as we pull those teams before district tournaments). 
 

We have to remember this proposal is not about the average team in a classification, it is about creating competitive balance in all of the classifications which currently does not exist. It isn't just the size of classifications, it is the disparity between good teams and excellent teams. Go look at the state championships in boys basketball and the disparities in some of those wins. How good are OCP, Miami Christian, University School, and Westminister Academy that they could have competed in the 9A playoffs and maybe won?

So why 2 years? While teams do have an ebb and flow, most teams are pretty consistent in terms of their success (or lack thereof). So 2 years gives a good indication of what kind of team you have.  

[DisabledAccount]

11 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

I agree with your general idea, but the problem remains that we are having teams like Orlando Christian Prep or Miami Christian play district games that are not even close to competitive. It is not the Columbia's and Suwannee's this is aimed at, it is the OCP and the poor teams that they have to play. 

I agree if we are reducing classification, keeping districts, and not moving teams up based on MaxPreps (or some other ranking system), then I think your idea is the best (as long as we pull those teams before district tournaments). 
 

We have to remember this proposal is not about the average team in a classification, it is about creating competitive balance in all of the classifications which currently does not exist. It isn't just the size of classifications, it is the disparity between good teams and excellent teams. Go look at the state championships in boys basketball and the disparities in some of those wins. How good are OCP, Miami Christian, University School, and Westminister Academy that they could have competed in the 9A playoffs and maybe won?

So why 2 years? While teams do have an ebb and flow, most teams are pretty consistent in terms of their success (or lack thereof). So 2 years gives a good indication of what kind of team you have.  

Ok what about this

 

What if they set it up where teams are not required to play other teams in their district (they can if they want but it isn't required, like Columbia would probably still play Gainesville in softball even if they ain't in our district because it's a great rivalry game) but they will still have a assigned district for tournaments 

 

They play out regular season and once regular season is over the top 64 teams (they can use whatever rankings they want) get pulled out and assigned to division 1 playoffs (they can do another 64 for division 2 if they feel it's needed)

 

The teams who aren't pulled then play district tournaments as normal,  they can seed the tournament based on a power ranking system 

 

Then the 4 regional district champs are seeded 1-4 based on power ranking and the rest of region is 5-8 wild card 

 

(so like how football is) 

 

 

 

Not only would this improve the quality of the teams in the playoffs but it would also separate teams who are just at another level then their fellow counterparts and put them all together 

 

This would also make the regular season more important then it has been lately and it also fixes the problem that some strong districts have with a good 3rd or 4th team being left out while a weak 2nd team gets in which was proven to be a positive in the system this past year with football

[badbird]

56 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

For seeding yeah

 

But i hate the idea of maxpreps determining classifications, especially if it's done on a 2 year cycle before the season

 

I can guarantee you will see worse blowouts if they go through with it

new proposal uses enrollment not ranking to put in classification

[badbird]

@Joshua Wilson Do you know how many classes would be in soccer?  We currently have 5.  Are they going to increase that to 7 also?

[DisabledAccount]

40 minutes ago, badbird said:

new proposal uses enrollment not ranking to put in classification

Wait so what is being changed? 

[badbird]

sent you a message but here it is for all.  Josh basically said it above

 

1A stays the same

2A-7A teams divided evenly with rest of teams off enrollment  (so we go from 9 classes to 7)

4 regions 4 districts in each region and districts divided evenly (so big districts)

district tournament seeded using maxpreps, don't have to play teams in district in regular season so that helps with travel 

4 district champs plus top 4 highest rank advance to playoffs.  Seeded in playoffs using maxpreps top 4 spots are district champs 5-8 wild cards.

 

not sure how many classes soccer will have because it only had 5 so i don't see them going to 7

 

that's the latest proposal