Playoff Changes (Sigh)

[gatorman-uf]

Look, I have been outspoken in that I don't think the district winner/runner-up format is broken. I actually think it works and encourages teams to schedule difficult teams because there is no reason not to. If you are an above average team why not schedule the local powerhouse in an out of district game, it doesn't hurt your chances of making the playoffs. Now, scheduling and losing them to them could actually hurt my seeding or playoff chances. 

 

Well, the FHSAA voted for the changes... I get it. I do.

 

Maybe it is the fact that I don't see the problem nor how this solves the problem.

I see an exciting playoff system each year, even if you consider that a 5-5 Booker T Washington made the playoffs and won a state championship, which I guess is a bad thing according to the powers that be because they prevented a team with a winning record from getting in.

 

I see a game like Dwyer and STA happen in the 2nd round in 7A (which was essentially the state championship game) and think if we have regional seeding in happens in round 3? To me that is not going to "save" the playoffs.

 

I think this is going to make it so that it matters less what happens on a field that you control vs a field that is 100 miles away. All of a sudden you have to hope that the teams you play are good. As a fan, you will have no clue how your team is doing because it won't matter until week 11.

 

I would point out again the old system vs new system had 7 of the same 8 playoffs teams (Region 1, Class 7A) in the simulation they ran. So it is not like the old system wasn't choosing good teams.

 

I will continue to say the reason that we have blowouts in the regular season is that the FHSAA tries to create a level playing field by only looking at school size. They forget that certain schools put more/less emphasis on certain sports and this creates the imbalance. Do I want to be a small school and play Trinity Christian, Bolles, University Christian, American Heritage-Delray? Nope, so I get why an average small school wants this change.

 

The reality is that this will be our system for the next 11 years at a minimum. We will still have the same "good" teams winning state championships. The same teams that can't compete, still won't be able to compete. 

[gatorman-uf]

I also dislike one of the stats that they gave that 16 losing teams made the playoffs and 35 winning teams missed the playoffs.

 

First, even if we assumed that all losing teams missed the playoffs and they all went to the winning team that would still leave 19 "winning" teams out of the playoffs. Additionally, nothing says that the losing teams and winning teams are even in the same region.

 

A quick look at 1A shows Northview had a losing record and made the playoffs, but there were 2 teams in Region 1 that had winning records, so one winning record team is still sitting home. In Region 2 and 4 there were a combined 3 additional "winning" teams and no losing teams. The system still sends winning teams home.

 

Again, losing teams make the playoffs because of small districts. Small districts happen because the FHSAA expanded classifications and has a couple of classifications that are too small. Shrink # of classifications, increase minimum # of teams in a classification and losing playoff team cease.

[DisabledAccount]

So what are the official changes?

[Tigerfan1]

So what are the official changes?

none yet but looks like 1A through 4A will not have districts anymore just regions

[Captain Morgan]

FHSAA screwing things up as usual. They don't care and don't listen. If you argue with them with actual facts you get shut down. And people wonder why there are so many independents. Hmmmm

[gatorman-uf]

FHSAA screwing things up as usual. They don't care and don't listen. If you argue with them with actual facts you get shut down. And people wonder why there are so many independents. Hmmmm

 

While I disagree with the decision, the FHSAA did do a poll asking coaches/ADs/administrators their opinion. 70% wanted a change. Supposedly 30 of the 60+ independents would be willing to rejoin classifications if the changes happen.

[gatorman-uf]

http://www.tampabay.com/sports/footballpreps/points-based-florida-high-school-football-playoff-format-moves-forward/2281599

 

Gives some more details... again I dispute how the new system fixes these things.

Again they talk of the losing teams vs winning teams, some winning teams are still staying home. 19 team of them, and who says all the teams are in the same region or district or class to easily replace the losing team.

 

"Blowout losses in the playoffs", we had blowouts in the state championships where the 2 best teams would be playing. Our system is watered down. The new focus on wide-open offenses that run more plays leads to more points, that is why we have such big scoring gaps.

 

Part of the reason why there are two teams in a district (forgetting the 60+ independent teams that would fill in the gaps) is the travel. FAMU and NFC might be the only two teams in the district but the nearest other teams are in Jacksonville, nearly 2.5 hours for a game. This is the geography of North Florida and the Panhandle. 

 

Yes games are decided in the 9th week to allow for a shootout if necessary. The 10th game is often a non-district rivalry game that allows the teams to play for something.

 

Look, the playoff system wasn't broken to me. You win, you're in. Now, it will have so many moving parts that you will be cheering for some game that shouldn't matter to you.

 

I will continue to say that relegation/promotion are the answer. You are good, you move up. You are bad, you move down. 

[Captain Morgan]

They are trying to appease a bunch of schools that don't want to compete at the highest level. Everyone knows most of those schools that are independent don't want to actually do the things it takes to be at the top. They want to be able to have a football team and say they can make the playoffs but don't want to play teams that eat sleep and breathe football. You will never make everyone happy and the problem is the classes are watered down but you will NEVER hear the FHSAA talk about cutting a class and eating into their profits. If they really wanted to fix the playoffs and get all winning teams into the playoffs cut a class expand districts. This would eliminate 3-4 team districts and make everything better but it will never happen. One can hope.

[Joshua Wilson]

Look, I have been outspoken in that I don't think the district winner/runner-up format is broken. I actually think it works and encourages teams to schedule difficult teams because there is no reason not to. If you are an above average team why not schedule the local powerhouse in an out of district game, it doesn't hurt your chances of making the playoffs. Now, scheduling and losing them to them could actually hurt my seeding or playoff chances. 

 

Well, the FHSAA voted for the changes... I get it. I do.

 

Maybe it is the fact that I don't see the problem nor how this solves the problem.

I see an exciting playoff system each year, even if you consider that a 5-5 Booker T Washington made the playoffs and won a state championship, which I guess is a bad thing according to the powers that be because they prevented a team with a winning record from getting in.

 

I see a game like Dwyer and STA happen in the 2nd round in 7A (which was essentially the state championship game) and think if we have regional seeding in happens in round 3? To me that is not going to "save" the playoffs.

 

I think this is going to make it so that it matters less what happens on a field that you control vs a field that is 100 miles away. All of a sudden you have to hope that the teams you play are good. As a fan, you will have no clue how your team is doing because it won't matter until week 11.

 

I would point out again the old system vs new system had 7 of the same 8 playoffs teams (Region 1, Class 7A) in the simulation they ran. So it is not like the old system wasn't choosing good teams.

 

I will continue to say the reason that we have blowouts in the regular season is that the FHSAA tries to create a level playing field by only looking at school size. They forget that certain schools put more/less emphasis on certain sports and this creates the imbalance. Do I want to be a small school and play Trinity Christian, Bolles, University Christian, American Heritage-Delray? Nope, so I get why an average small school wants this change.

 

The reality is that this will be our system for the next 11 years at a minimum. We will still have the same "good" teams winning state championships. The same teams that can't compete, still won't be able to compete. 

 

FHSAA didn't vote on changes. This was for informational purposes, feedback and discussion. I was there and was a fresh breath of air to listen to not only the Board of Directors, but the ADs that were there representing their schools and listening to what they had to say. It is very refreshing when you hear these ADs actually validate the survey done by the FHSAA through their comments. 

 

Some of the ideas you mentioned are being looked at, but this is a multi-step process the FHSAA is going to go through. The classification issues will be discussed, but the first step and the easiest step to start with is the playoffs and then go to the next step in the process.

[09mrslick]

I can name a couple of schools that are independent with good size enrollments and I have no clue on why they went independent. I'm assuming they don't wanna compete with national talent.

 

Key West 1300

Archbishop McCarthy 1600

Coral Glades 2400

[gatorman-uf]

Some of the ideas you mentioned are being looked at, but this is a multi-step process the FHSAA is going to go through. The classification issues will be discussed, but the first step and the easiest step to start with is the playoffs and then go to the next step in the process.

 

Come on Joshua, the easiest step?

 

So on one side we have a complete overall of districts champions/runner-ups, two separate rule systems for small schools and large schools, a seeding system based on power points, which are based on things a team has no control over

 

OR  

 

we can reduce classifications, which would expand two-team districts, prevent examples like NFC and FAMU.

 

Sorry, not buying that it is easier....

 

Again, I get the reasons... I just think it doesn't do anything that it is trying to do. Nobody has ever explained to me how the current system prevents Powerhouse vs Powerhouse from playing which is what the new system is supposed to create.

 

I am for change, but this doesn't create the very thing you are trying to change. All it really does is allow teams to avoid playing Trinity Bolles STA Manatee

[Sharkbait]

The problem I see is that you don't know how good someone will be 2 years from when you schedule them.  Should a school be punished for an opponent falling on hard times.   District play has worked for years. Power shifts from region to region over the years and that's okay.  What we don't need is a BCS type system for high school.  We are all biased to teams in our particular areas and there's no reason to believe that whoever determining the strength of schedule and power rankings won't have a bias.  If you want to introduce a wild card or something like that then we could take a look.

[Tigerfan1]

If or should i say when this new system passes and takes affect does this mean that the southern teams like Ft Meade or Pahokee will have to travel to the panhandle to play a first round game? Providing that say Ft Meade is ranked #16 and Northview ranked #1 ?  Just a question.

[DisabledAccount]

If or should i say when this new system passes and takes affect does this mean that the southern teams like Ft Meade or Pahokee will have to travel to the panhandle to play a first round game? Providing that say Ft Meade is ranked #16 and Northview ranked #1 ? Just a question.

To my knowledge the region's play same but the higher seed in games gets home game so like with last year in 7A region 1 we would have hosted Lincoln (and they still would have lost to us) 😉

[Tigerfan1]

To my knowledge the region's play same but the higher seed in games gets home game so like with last year in 7A region 1 we would have hosted Lincoln (and they still would have lost to us)

So what you are saying is that there will only be 2 regions in 1A an region 1 will play it off and region 2 will play it off and then region 1 and region 2 champ will meet in the final. If thats the case then we will not always have the two best teams in the final. Sometimes but not always. 

[gatorman-uf]

So what you are saying is that there will only be 2 regions in 1A an region 1 will play it off and region 2 will play it off and then region 1 and region 2 champ will meet in the final. If thats the case then we will not always have the two best teams in the final. Sometimes but not always. 

 

The longest travel would still be Pahokee to Branford in Region 4, which was a possibility under the current system so travel won't really change. In theory, 4 district 8 teams could make the playoffs or 4 district 7 teams as district will not exist. 

 

So Pahokee could play 10 games and never leave Palm Beach County and still end up in the playoffs. 

[gatorman-uf]

The problem I see is that you don't know how good someone will be 2 years from when you schedule them.  Should a school be punished for an opponent falling on hard times.   District play has worked for years. Power shifts from region to region over the years and that's okay.  What we don't need is a BCS type system for high school.  We are all biased to teams in our particular areas and there's no reason to believe that whoever determining the strength of schedule and power rankings won't have a bias.  If you want to introduce a wild card or something like that then we could take a look.

 

They are essentially introducing wildcards as 1A-4A all the positions are wildcard and in 4A-8A only the district champ is ensured a playoff spot. The other 4 former district runner-up positions would become wildcards. But when we say wildcard, we have to have a system that allows a team in. 

[Sharkbait]

They are essentially introducing wildcards as 1A-4A all the positions are wildcard and in 4A-8A only the district champ is ensured a playoff spot. The other 4 former district runner-up positions would become wildcards. But when we say wildcard, we have to have a system that allows a team in. 

I don't mind the wildcard or seeding based on strength of schedule but I do believe in districts and district champs going to the playoffs. District play allows for local rivalries to mean something more than bragging rights.  I do think the districts need to be more geographically aligned and with as equal a number of teams as possible. I also believe we need to keep geographic regions and not have Baker traveling to Ft Meade or Pahokee traveling to Vernon for an early round playoff game. It is very expensive for schools to make a playoff run its generally a financial negative.  We also don't really have a way to measure how good someone is during the season without head to head match-ups or common opponent and that generally doesn't take place between the regions in 1A at least. Last year we did have an early match-up of the state finalists  when PSJ and Trenton played in September but that rarely happens. By the way they will be playing again this fall on September 9th so make your hotel reservations now lol.

[Captain Morgan]

So the FHSAA sent out stuff and coaches voted what they wanted. Here is what I don't understand, have 70-80 independent schools and they sent them these votes also to try to convince them to join back in. They are NOT a part of what we are doing so why would they have a say. They chose to do their own thing so why do they have the same influence as a St Joe or Dixie Co that hasn't walked away from the FHSAA???? Just makes no sense to me.

[Tigerfan1]

I just cant understand how this is going to make anything better, I also cant understand that of all places to model a playoff after is Nebraska? Come on now really Nebraska. How about California or Texas, We all know the best football is in Florida, Texas and California.

[DisabledAccount]

I like idea of wildcard because a team like eastside who I'm sure our jv team would have beaten by at least 30 did not belong in a playoff game and didn't we used to have wild card?

[gatorman-uf]

not have Baker traveling to Ft Meade or Pahokee traveling to Vernon for an early round playoff game. It is very expensive for schools to make a playoff run its generally a financial negative.  We also don't really have a way to measure how good someone is during the season without head to head match-ups or common opponent and that generally doesn't take place between the regions in 1A at least. Last year we did have an early match-up of the state finalists  when PSJ and Trenton played in September but that rarely happens. By the way they will be playing again this fall on September 9th so make your hotel reservations now lol.

 

You won't see that in 1A-4A. Regions still exist. It will be a bigger issue in 5A-8A for travel during playoffs, but 1A-4A should look very similar to what it always does so no worries there.

[gatorman-uf]

So the FHSAA sent out stuff and coaches voted what they wanted. Here is what I don't understand, have 70-80 independent schools and they sent them these votes also to try to convince them to join back in. They are NOT a part of what we are doing so why would they have a say. They chose to do their own thing so why do they have the same influence as a St Joe or Dixie Co that hasn't walked away from the FHSAA???? Just makes no sense to me.

 

Those independents schools still are part of the FHSAA, they have just chosen to not be part of the playoff system as independents. Schools can do this for numerous reasons including schools like IMG, which allows them to have a national schedule. Schools like Florida School for the Deaf and Blind. Schools that are super small and don't want to play a ton of games. Schools that just don't want to play schools that will dominate them and put safety of players higher.

 

Those independent schools though are important if the FHSAA wants to keep 8 classifications. If you put even 40 of them back into our classifications, many of the problems that we talk about can be solved. So these schools are still members, still have a say in the organization, the FHSAA wants to serve them in the best way possible.

 

In reality, this is no different than the threats of small rural schools going independent several years ago. The FHSAA talked to them and found a suitable solution. The FHSAA is trying to serve the needs of Bolles, STA, Armwood, and these small private schools as well. It is hard to create rules for all of them, but the FHSAA has to listen to all of them.

[Captain Morgan]

I understand they are part of the FHSAA but they have chosen to not be a part of the playoffs. So why should they have a say in how the playoffs work?? If you are a part of what's going on by all means you have a say but if you aren't why are you dictating to others? It seems they should have asked these people for their opinion before things got to the point that they decided they needed to go independent. Now they are trying to fix something that they had a hand in breaking.

[gatorman-uf]

Captain,

 

I am not a fan of the potential new system, but I do understand the need for change.

The decision is not official yet and still need groups to accept it. But yes, you ask these people their opinion.  Your argument is essentially saying that a citizen who chose not to vote shouldn't be allowed to propose things that would make their government better in their eyes. I disagree, they are still part of the organization. The FHSAA is listening to them and not just them. Lots of playoff-eligible schools want to do this and bringing back those schools solves many of the problems that we are currently talking about. So if it gets them in, maybe a lot of the problems solve themselves.

 

I would argue the FHSAA (and not the independents) was negligent in allowing these schools to become independent. The moment they noticed the large number leaving they should have done something. The difference was it is harder to quantify their issues in comparison to a Chiefland or Williston having to play Trinity Catholic in a district game.