Arizona Implements Rules to Manage Transfers

[OldSchoolLion]

26 minutes ago, BrowardHandicapper said:

I never said "recruit"   .     It is possible that kids also go to private schools for a better education and opportunity though, right?  

Some kids also go to public schools  have "magnet " .  I'll never knock a kid that wants to expand opportunity academically or athletically.  I'll never knock a program that provides those opportunities for kids. 

 Post high school educational opportunities that may have not been available if kids were forced to stay at the schools that "we" deem fit for them.  Who are we to tell a kid what he/she can and can't do to open up doors academically and athletically?

  Has it gotten to the point that because some are so sick of football dominance that we want to lock our youth down and limit their futures for our own satisfactions with High School football?

 

How about we just separate the state for Division 1 and Division 2 football and play with the big boys.  Those with baulz step forward.

 

What I have heard is that this issue of new transfer rules got elevated because some felt private schools had an unfair advantage.  I know you didn't say "recruit," BH, but many others have, from the beginning of time, so I am OK with just saying it.   

Kids expanding themselves academically..sure.  Athletics in public school is a privilege, not a right.  If a kid wants to expand themselves athletically, that should be on the parent, not the taxpayer.  I am sure there are administrative costs associated with these kids hopping around, as well as "hidden" costs, ie the kid who gets his athletic opportunity ruined when the transfer kid bumps him off the varsity.    

The kids need to learn you sometimes have to make due with what you got, especially when you are not paying the bill.  There are LOTS of middle-aged people who need to start new careers now that their jobs are gone.  They cannot afford to go to a university for four years to get a new degree.  They have no taxpayer funded schools to go to to help them learn a new profession.  Sorry, but I don't feel sorry for the kid who is getting free schooling and not satisfied.  Sorry if that sounds cruel, but life is being very cruel to a lot of people right now.   

 

 

[BrowardHandicapper]

5 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

I have been on the forums for 12 years, and there was a much larger voice about why this bill opens up Free Agency for sports. And the reason why nobody knocks a kid for going to the Magnet School is because of the purpose of schools is education, not sports! Again, the state legislature butting in where they don't need to be.

Please understand the Free Agency Bill was not about enhancing opportunities for students, it was about trying to destroy public education as a whole. It plays into the Republican narrative of "school choice" which then becomes the expansion of the voucher system! It isn't about students, it is about making that money for the businesses! 

So it had nothing to do with football whatsoever.  It never crossed anyone's mind supporting or opposing it?

I'm not knocking any kids for bettering improving opportunities in academics or a better chance at getting college tuition paid for .  Never will.  

But you are 100% correct all kids that attend "Magnet  Schools" is strictly for education, not sports! 

[gatorman-uf]

1 minute ago, BrowardHandicapper said:

So it had nothing to do with football whatsoever.  It never crossed anyone's mind supporting or opposing it?

Other than the FHSAA and a few others, no... They might have used the examples of football or basketball or tambourine player, but it was all coached in terms of we want parents to be able to choose whatever school they want to go. The long term goal is simply to create vouchers and bring in private schools. I have been watching our state legislature do this for nearly 20 years, trust me that is the ultimate goal and this is just one way to make it more palatable for the masses. 

 

[BrowardHandicapper]

2 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

Other than the FHSAA and a few others, no... They might have used the examples of football or basketball or tambourine player, but it was all coached in terms of we want parents to be able to choose whatever school they want to go. The long term goal is simply to create vouchers and bring in private schools. I have been watching our state legislature do this for nearly 20 years, trust me that is the ultimate goal and this is just one way to make it more palatable for the masses. 

 

What you are saying makes sense but most articles you read on it always gravitate to HS football... Even when examples are provided on how HB 7029 works , they use football and not from the  sports section of the publications.

 

http://extracredit.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2016/10/04/taking-the-edge-off-floridas-new-open-enrollment-rule/

 

http://www.tbo.com/sports/preps/new-law-creates-free-agency-in-florida-high-school-athletics-20160414/

 

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/highschool/os-sp-hs-transfer-comments-0812-story.html

 

http://www.pnj.com/story/sports/high-school/football/2017/08/05/how-transfer-policy-impact-athletes-programs-state/538730001/

 

http://www.jacksonville.com/sports/high-schools/2016-03-11/story/high-school-sports-could-be-poised-big-change-passage-school

 

http://www.newsherald.com/sports/20160702/new-bill-transforms-transfer-rules

 

 

 

It may not have been this board , but I can swear I remember other posters hoping this bill is going to pass and they believed it was going to change the landscape football powers around the state.  I remember going back and forth with them because I did not feel much would change.

 

 

 

[DisabledAccount]

8 minutes ago, BrowardHandicapper said:

What you are saying makes sense but most articles you read on it always gravitate to HS football... Even when examples are provided on how HB 7029 works , they use football and not from the  sports section of the publications.

 

http://extracredit.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2016/10/04/taking-the-edge-off-floridas-new-open-enrollment-rule/

 

http://www.tbo.com/sports/preps/new-law-creates-free-agency-in-florida-high-school-athletics-20160414/

 

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/highschool/os-sp-hs-transfer-comments-0812-story.html

 

http://www.pnj.com/story/sports/high-school/football/2017/08/05/how-transfer-policy-impact-athletes-programs-state/538730001/

 

http://www.jacksonville.com/sports/high-schools/2016-03-11/story/high-school-sports-could-be-poised-big-change-passage-school

 

http://www.newsherald.com/sports/20160702/new-bill-transforms-transfer-rules

 

 

 

It may not have been this board , but I can swear I remember other posters hoping this bill is going to pass and they believed it was going to change the landscape football powers around the state.  I remember going back and forth with them because I did not feel much would change.

 

 

 

I was one of people supporting it

 

If we had kept old way and changed nothing then we were never going to change results

 

Fact is a lot of teams that aren't competitive on new system weren't competitive on the old one so I'm at least wanting to see where this thing goes

[OldSchoolLion]

1 hour ago, BrowardHandicapper said:

SFL privates on par or generally better then STA or AHP 

Baseball:  Archbishop McCarthy, Nova, Westminster Christian, Trinity Christian Academy (Lake Worth), Doral Academy, Columbus, Calvary Christian (FTL), Pine Crest, North Broward Prep, Gulliver Prep, University School

Basketball: Westminster Academy (FTL), University School, Miami Christian, Calvary Christian (FTL) ,  Doral Academy,  Gulliver Prep, Coral Springs Charter,  Cardinal Gibbons, St. Andrews,  

New teams that are on par: Sport Leadership and Management (Miami), Oxbridge Academy

 

Soccer:  University School, North Broward Prep, Gulliver Prep, Pembroke Pines Charter

 

I am not going to compile a list of public schools in the above sports but the list would have many on par or above.  I agree that AHP and STA have great stability across the board in spor, s but don't most large  privates versus publics in their geographical areas as well.

 

Is it possible that:  with a large population in FL/SFL over 20/5 million, a extremely strong football heritage, SFL being the best metro area in the nation producing talent.  Perhaps when you factor the above,  that is why the private schools are so dominant.  The Northeast take their lacrosse serious .  You could probably argue the private lacrosse schools in the Northeast are just as,  or more dominant then STA , AHP and IMG (football)when they face public schools in lacrosse. 

If STA, AHP and Bolles had never existed, would we be hearing nearly as much about the public vs private debate?  I think not.  Those 3 schools, competing in some of the larger classes, have "cost" public schools a number of high profile state championships, ie football, over the years. 

STA-17 state football finals since 1990

Bolles- 16 state football finals since 1990 

Bolles-18 state baseball finals in the past 37 years

And now we have AHP starting to dominate.  This stuff above is what I think has people really upset, not the occasional state title won by other private schools over the years. 

Look at the performance of other private schools in the data below.   It is not as if any of the other private schools have been winning a disproportionate amount of titles.

Cardinal Gibbons and Chaminade have been around forever in Broward County.  For most of that time, they have not been good in football and have been doormats to the public schools.  Sure, they would be really good in a sport or two at a time, but I never remembering hearing the public schools complain about them.  They did not have powerhouse sports programs.   

 

Below is a list of 20 Catholic high schools in Florida and the number of appearances each has made in a state football championship.  Unless noted, all of these schools have been open for more than 50 years.  There is well over 500 seasons of football represented, and they made a total of only 44 state finals appearances.  Almost half of those appearances were by St Thomas Aquinas. These Catholic schools have a record of 15-21 in state final matchups versus public schools.  Immediately below are 4 Catholic schools that had to wait a long time between state final appearances.

Bishop Moore  45 years   

Christopher Columbus 32 years

Chaminade-Madonna 28 years

Tampa Jesuit  24 years

 

Lee County

Bishop Verot - 2 appearances (1990, 1994*)

 

Dade County

Belen Jesuit - 1 appearance (2009*)

Christopher Columbus - 3 appearances (1980*, 1982*, 2014*)

Immaculata-Lasalle - 0 appearances

Monsignor Pace - 1 appearance (2003-won)

 

Broward County

Archbishop McCarthy (opened in 1998) - 0 appearances

Cardinal Gibbons - 1 appearance (1990*)

Chaminade-Madonna - 6 appearances (1974*,  2002, 2003*- won, 2005*-won, 2016, 2017-won)

St Thomas Aquinas - 17 appearances- all games played against public schools (1991, 1992-won, 1996, 1997-won,  1999-won, 2000, 2001, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007-won, 2008-won, 2010-won, 2012-won, 2014-won, 2015-won, 2016-won)Note:

Note: Although not a Catholic school, American Heritage Plantation has been playing football for a long time and took quite a while to experience consistent success.They made the state finals in 1998 and did not return for 15 years.

 

Palm Beach County

Cardinal Newman - 0 appearances

Pope John Paul II (opened in 1980) -  0 appearances

 

Central Florida

Bishop Moore - 2 appearances (1970*, 2015-won)

Clearwater Central Catholic - 1 appearance (2013)

John Carroll - 0 appearances

Melbourne Central Catholic - 0 appearances

St Petersburg Catholic - 0 appearances

Tampa Catholic - 2 appearances (2007*, 2009)

Tampa Jesuit - 3 appearances (1968*-won, 1992*, 2002*)

 

North Florida

Ocala Trinity Catholic (opened in 2000) - 4 appearances (2005*-won, 2006*, 2008*, 2010-won)

Pensacola Catholic - 1 appearance (2004*)

 

 

Below are Florida's top 12-20 winners of state championships in 8 major sports-boys and girls.  I have bolded the private schools.  It demonstrates that public schools can excel or even dominate a sport.  Only Bolles, STA, AHP, Pace and Westminster Christian appear more once below.

Tampa Catholic has won multiple baseball championships, but only one basketball championship and no football championships in over 50 years.  Chaminade-Madonna has won a few football championships, but has never won a baseball or basketball championship in over 50 years. ...not exactly knocking 'em dead.

Florida State Titles Won in Major Sports

Football

Bolles (Jacksonville) 11, St. Thomas Aquinas (Fort Lauderdale) 9, University Christian (Jacksonville) 8, Glades Day (Belle Glade) 7, North Florida Christian (Tallahassee) 7, Glades Central (Belle Glade) 6, Jefferson County (Monticello) 6, Lakeland 6, Pahokee 6, Trinity Christian (Jacksonville) 6, Manatee (Bradenton) 5, Miami Central 5, Washington (Miami) 5, Miami Northwestern 5

Basketball-Boys

Miami 18, Malone 14, Port St. Joe 8, Seabreeze (Daytona Beach) 7, FAMU (Tallahassee) 6, Havana 6, Miami Norland 6, Andrew Jackson (Jacksonville) 5, Arlington Country Day (Jacksonville) 5, Blanche Ely (Pompano Beach) 5, Dillard (Fort Lauderdale) 5, Florida Air (Melbourne) 5, Gainesville 5, Monsignor Pace (Miami) 5, Orlando Christian Prep 5

Basketball-Girls

Ribault (Jacksonville) 10, Dillard (Fort Lauderdale) 9, Laurel Hill 7, South Broward (Hollywood) 6, Paxton 5, Benjamin (North Palm Beach) 4, Clearwater Central Catholic 4, Dr. Phillips (Orlando) 4, Edgewater (Orlando) 4, FAMU (Tallahassee) 4, First Academy (Orlando) 4, Pensacola Catholic 4, P.K. Yonge (Gainesville) 4, Southeast (Bradenton) 4, Washington (Pensacola) 4

Baseball

Key West 11, Westminster Christian (Miami) 11, Tampa Catholic 9 , Avon Park 8, Sarasota 8, Bolles (Jacksonville) 7, Brito Miami Private 7, Tate (Cantonment) 7, Archbishop McCarthy (Southwest Ranches) 6, Monsignor Pace (Miami) 6, Escambia (Pensacola) 5, Loyola (Miami) 5, Lakeland 5, Palatka 5

Softball

Naples 10, Bartow 8, American Heritage (Plantation) 6, Gulliver Prep (Miami) 6, Hollywood Christian 5, Barron Collier (Naples) 4, Palm Beach Gardens 4, St. Thomas Aquinas (Fort Lauderdale) 4, American Heritage (Delray Beach) 3, Canterbury(St. Petersburg) 3, Eagle's View (Jacksonville) 3, Miami Palmetto* 3, Palm Harbor University 3, Pine Castle Christian (Orlando) 3, Trinity Prep (Winter Park) 3, Westminster Christian (Miami) 3,

Wrestling

Brandon 27, South Dade (Homestead) 11, Miami Southridge 7, Cardinal Gibbons (Fort Lauderdale) 5, Oviedo 5, Fort Myers 4, McArthur (Hollywood) 4, Flagler Palm Coast 3, Miami Norland 3, Miami Palmetto 3, Springstead (Spring Hill) 3, Stranahan (Fort Lauderdale) 3, Suwannee (Live Oak) 3

Track & Field-Boys

FAMU (Tallahassee) 13, St. Petersburg 10, Glades Central (Belle Glade) 8, Robert E. Lee (Jacksonville) 7, Miami 7, Port St. Joe 7, Seminole (Sanford) 7, Duval (Jacksonville) 6, Haines City 6, St. Thomas Aquinas (Fort Lauderdale) 6, Clewiston 5, Fletcher (Neptune Beach) 5, Godby (Tallahassee) 5, Maclay (Tallahassee) 5, Miami Northwestern 5, Oak Ridge (Orlando) 5,

Track & Field -Girls

Miami Northwestern 12, St. Thomas Aquinas (Fort Lauderdale) 11, Glades Central (Belle Glade) 10, Oak Ridge (Orlando) 9, Palm Beach Lakes 8, Lakeland Christian 6, Miami Southridge 6, Seminole (Sanford) 6, Trinity Prep (Winter Park) 6, Maclay (Tallahassee) 5, Ribault (Jacksonville) 5, Suncoast (Riviera Beach) 5, American Heritage (Plantation) 4, Holy Trinity (Melbourne) 4

 

•  

[BrowardHandicapper]

6 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

If STA, AHP and Bolles had never existed, would we be hearing nearly as much about the public vs private debate?  I think not.  Those 3 schools, competing in some of the larger classes, have "cost" public schools a number of high profile state championships, ie football, over the years. 

STA-17 state football finals since 1990

Bolles- 16 state football finals since 1990 

Bolles-18 state baseball finals in the past 37 years

And now we have AHP starting to dominate.  This stuff above is what I think has people really upset, not the occasional state title won by other private schools over the years. 

Look at the performance of other private schools in the data below.   It is not as if any of the other private schools have been winning a disproportionate amount of titles.

Cardinal Gibbons and Chaminade have been around forever in Broward County.  For most of that time, they have not been good in football and have been doormats to the public schools.  Sure, they would be really good in a sport or two at a time, but I never remembering hearing the public schools complain about them.  They did not have powerhouse sports programs.   

 

Below is a list of 20 Catholic high schools in Florida and the number of appearances each has made in a state football championship.  Unless noted, all of these schools have been open for more than 50 years.  There is well over 500 seasons of football represented, and they made a total of only 44 state finals appearances.  Almost half of those appearances were by St Thomas Aquinas. These Catholic schools have a record of 15-21 in state final matchups versus public schools.  Immediately below are 4 Catholic schools that had to wait a long time between state final appearances.

Bishop Moore  45 years   

Christopher Columbus 32 years

Chaminade-Madonna 28 years

Tampa Jesuit  24 years

 

Lee County

Bishop Verot - 2 appearances (1990, 1994*)

 

Dade County

Belen Jesuit - 1 appearance (2009*)

Christopher Columbus - 3 appearances (1980*, 1982*, 2014*)

Immaculata-Lasalle - 0 appearances

Monsignor Pace - 1 appearance (2003-won)

 

Broward County

Archbishop McCarthy (opened in 1998) - 0 appearances

Cardinal Gibbons - 1 appearance (1990*)

Chaminade-Madonna - 6 appearances (1974*,  2002, 2003*- won, 2005*-won, 2016, 2017-won)

St Thomas Aquinas - 17 appearances- all games played against public schools (1991, 1992-won, 1996, 1997-won,  1999-won, 2000, 2001, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007-won, 2008-won, 2010-won, 2012-won, 2014-won, 2015-won, 2016-won)Note:

Note: Although not a Catholic school, American Heritage Plantation has been playing football for a long time and took quite a while to experience consistent success.They made the state finals in 1998 and did not return for 15 years.

 

Palm Beach County

Cardinal Newman - 0 appearances

Pope John Paul II (opened in 1980) -  0 appearances

 

Central Florida

Bishop Moore - 2 appearances (1970*, 2015-won)

Clearwater Central Catholic - 1 appearance (2013)

John Carroll - 0 appearances

Melbourne Central Catholic - 0 appearances

St Petersburg Catholic - 0 appearances

Tampa Catholic - 2 appearances (2007*, 2009)

Tampa Jesuit - 3 appearances (1968*-won, 1992*, 2002*)

 

North Florida

Ocala Trinity Catholic (opened in 2000) - 4 appearances (2005*-won, 2006*, 2008*, 2010-won)

Pensacola Catholic - 1 appearance (2004*)

 

 

Below are Florida's top 12-20 winners of state championships in 8 major sports-boys and girls.  I have bolded the private schools.  It demonstrates that public schools can excel or even dominate a sport.  Only Bolles, STA, AHP, Pace and Westminster Christian appear more once below.

Tampa Catholic has won multiple baseball championships, but only one basketball championship and no football championships in over 50 years.  Chaminade-Madonna has won a few football championships, but has never won a baseball or basketball championship in over 50 years. ...not exactly knocking 'em dead.

Florida State Titles Won in Major Sports

Football

Bolles (Jacksonville) 11, St. Thomas Aquinas (Fort Lauderdale) 9, University Christian (Jacksonville) 8, Glades Day (Belle Glade) 7, North Florida Christian (Tallahassee) 7, Glades Central (Belle Glade) 6, Jefferson County (Monticello) 6, Lakeland 6, Pahokee 6, Trinity Christian (Jacksonville) 6, Manatee (Bradenton) 5, Miami Central 5, Washington (Miami) 5, Miami Northwestern 5

Basketball-Boys

Miami 18, Malone 14, Port St. Joe 8, Seabreeze (Daytona Beach) 7, FAMU (Tallahassee) 6, Havana 6, Miami Norland 6, Andrew Jackson (Jacksonville) 5, Arlington Country Day (Jacksonville) 5, Blanche Ely (Pompano Beach) 5, Dillard (Fort Lauderdale) 5, Florida Air (Melbourne) 5, Gainesville 5, Monsignor Pace (Miami) 5, Orlando Christian Prep 5

Basketball-Girls

Ribault (Jacksonville) 10, Dillard (Fort Lauderdale) 9, Laurel Hill 7, South Broward (Hollywood) 6, Paxton 5, Benjamin (North Palm Beach) 4, Clearwater Central Catholic 4, Dr. Phillips (Orlando) 4, Edgewater (Orlando) 4, FAMU (Tallahassee) 4, First Academy (Orlando) 4, Pensacola Catholic 4, P.K. Yonge (Gainesville) 4, Southeast (Bradenton) 4, Washington (Pensacola) 4

Baseball

Key West 11, Westminster Christian (Miami) 11, Tampa Catholic 9 , Avon Park 8, Sarasota 8, Bolles (Jacksonville) 7, Brito Miami Private 7, Tate (Cantonment) 7, Archbishop McCarthy (Southwest Ranches) 6, Monsignor Pace (Miami) 6, Escambia (Pensacola) 5, Loyola (Miami) 5, Lakeland 5, Palatka 5

Softball

Naples 10, Bartow 8, American Heritage (Plantation) 6, Gulliver Prep (Miami) 6, Hollywood Christian 5, Barron Collier (Naples) 4, Palm Beach Gardens 4, St. Thomas Aquinas (Fort Lauderdale) 4, American Heritage (Delray Beach) 3, Canterbury(St. Petersburg) 3, Eagle's View (Jacksonville) 3, Miami Palmetto* 3, Palm Harbor University 3, Pine Castle Christian (Orlando) 3, Trinity Prep (Winter Park) 3, Westminster Christian (Miami) 3,

Wrestling

Brandon 27, South Dade (Homestead) 11, Miami Southridge 7, Cardinal Gibbons (Fort Lauderdale) 5, Oviedo 5, Fort Myers 4, McArthur (Hollywood) 4, Flagler Palm Coast 3, Miami Norland 3, Miami Palmetto 3, Springstead (Spring Hill) 3, Stranahan (Fort Lauderdale) 3, Suwannee (Live Oak) 3

Track & Field-Boys

FAMU (Tallahassee) 13, St. Petersburg 10, Glades Central (Belle Glade) 8, Robert E. Lee (Jacksonville) 7, Miami 7, Port St. Joe 7, Seminole (Sanford) 7, Duval (Jacksonville) 6, Haines City 6, St. Thomas Aquinas (Fort Lauderdale) 6, Clewiston 5, Fletcher (Neptune Beach) 5, Godby (Tallahassee) 5, Maclay (Tallahassee) 5, Miami Northwestern 5, Oak Ridge (Orlando) 5,

Track & Field -Girls

Miami Northwestern 12, St. Thomas Aquinas (Fort Lauderdale) 11, Glades Central (Belle Glade) 10, Oak Ridge (Orlando) 9, Palm Beach Lakes 8, Lakeland Christian 6, Miami Southridge 6, Seminole (Sanford) 6, Trinity Prep (Winter Park) 6, Maclay (Tallahassee) 5, Ribault (Jacksonville) 5, Suncoast (Riviera Beach) 5, American Heritage (Plantation) 4, Holy Trinity (Melbourne) 4

 

•  

What about New Jersey privates for publics?

[gatorman-uf]

 

1 hour ago, BrowardHandicapper said:

What about New Jersey privates for publics?

New Jersey has a separate system for privates and publics in football since 1974. Technically, NJ doesn't have state championships for public schools (more akin to what Florida HS fans would know as regional champions), but does for privates.
In basketball, NJ has had a separate system for basketball since 1934. Sadly, once again our state legislature would never allow this to happen, because they think it is their business, when it isn't.

[DisabledAccount]

6 hours ago, gatorman-uf said:

 

New Jersey has a separate system for privates and publics in football since 1974. Technically, NJ doesn't have state championships for public schools (more akin to what Florida HS fans would know as regional champions), but does for privates.
In basketball, NJ has had a separate system for basketball since 1934. Sadly, once again our state legislature would never allow this to happen, because they think it is their business, when it isn't.

So you think Aucilla Christian should be in same classification as St Thomas Aquinas? 

 

Bc most of the privates are in 2a and 3a, you wouldn't have enough privates to fill a classification with the ones in 4a-8a

[gatorman-uf]

10 hours ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

So you think Aucilla Christian should be in same classification as St Thomas Aquinas? 

 

Bc most of the privates are in 2a and 3a, you wouldn't have enough privates to fill a classification with the ones in 4a-8a

Whoosh... whole point is missed again, when have I have suggested that? I have consistently stated that the state legislature is meddling in things that they should not meddle in. If as Josh puts it, the FHSAA is a member driven organization and the members want a separate classification for private schools, they should let it happen. 
And for God's sake, Please stop talking about things you do not know.

In NJ, there are 5 Classifications, each with 4 Sectional Champs for the Public Schools
In NJ, there are currently 3 classifications for Non-Public Schools. They play down to 1 state champion. 
The Largest Group (Group IV) as there is no Group I for football, has a total of 10 schools. The schools range in size from 1113 to 1944.
That fits pretty close to Florida's Class 5A and above. Not counting Bolles and Trinity Christian (Jax), there would be 10 schools in that make believe classification here in Florida.
 

[DisabledAccount]

Just now, gatorman-uf said:

Whoosh... whole point is missed again, when have I have suggested that? I have consistently stated that the state legislature is meddling in things that they should not meddle in. If as Josh puts it, the FHSAA is a member driven organization and the members want a separate classification for private schools, they should let it happen. 
And for God's sake, Please stop talking about things you do not know.

In NJ, there are 5 Classifications, each with 4 Sectional Champs for the Public Schools
In NJ, there are currently 3 classifications for Non-Public Schools. They play down to 1 state champion. 
The Largest Group (Group IV) as there is no Group I for football, has a total of 10 schools. The schools range in size from 1113 to 1944.
That fits pretty close to Florida's Class 5A and above. Not counting Bolles and Trinity Christian (Jax), there would be 10 schools in that make believe classification here in Florida.
 

How do they run a 10 team class? 

[BrowardHandicapper]

What is interesting is Deerfield Beach, Ely, Miramar, Dillard in 2017 all probably had a lot more inbound transfers then STA yet no one cares about transfers when teams don't dominate.  Not sure if it is the principle of radical transferring in general that bothers people, or finding a excuse to slow down dynasties? 

No one cares about teams like Deerfeld Beach, Jones and Atlantic who probably had a combined 70+ talented transfers last year.....  No one cares....Just saying.

[OldSchoolLion]

1 hour ago, gatorman-uf said:

Whoosh... whole point is missed again, when have I have suggested that? I have consistently stated that the state legislature is meddling in things that they should not meddle in. If as Josh puts it, the FHSAA is a member driven organization and the members want a separate classification for private schools, they should let it happen. 
And for God's sake, Please stop talking about things you do not know.

In NJ, there are 5 Classifications, each with 4 Sectional Champs for the Public Schools
In NJ, there are currently 3 classifications for Non-Public Schools. They play down to 1 state champion. 
The Largest Group (Group IV) as there is no Group I for football, has a total of 10 schools. The schools range in size from 1113 to 1944.
That fits pretty close to Florida's Class 5A and above. Not counting Bolles and Trinity Christian (Jax), there would be 10 schools in that make believe classification here in Florida.
 

My impression is that the private leagues in NJ and the DC area involve teams that are somewhat close to each other geographically and demographically.  There are a lot of Catholic schools.  And a lot of these schools have been playing against each other for a long time, so there are deep rivalries and teams have motivation to keep up with the other teams in the league. The teams in Group 4, where Don Bosco plays, appear to be somewhat close in terms of talent level.

Florida seems to have a lot more "types" of private schools, ie prep, charter, christian, catholic, etc.   Because they are spread out geographically, there can be vast differences demographically and talent-wise.  And for whatever reason, many of these schools have not historically played each other.  For example, one would think that the Catholic schools in south FL would routinely play each other, but that is not always the case, ie Aquinas, Columbus and Chaminade have rarely played each other.

Am not saying these things are barriers that cannot be overcome...just saying that to put in a place a state-wide private school system in FL, there might be other states that are a closer match to our situation.

[OldSchoolLion]

4 minutes ago, BrowardHandicapper said:

What is interesting is Deerfield Beach, Ely, Miramar, Dillard in 2017 all probably had a lot more inbound transfers then STA yet no one cares about transfers when teams don't dominate.  Not sure if it is the principle of radical transferring in general that bothers people, or finding a excuse to slow down dynasties? 

No one cares about teams like Deerfeld Beach, Jones and Atlantic who probably had a combined 70+ talented transfers last year.....  No one cares....Just saying.

You nailed it about the domination causing the squawking.  Private schools had every bit as much opportunity to recruit in the past as they they did now, but you didn't hear much complaining until Aquinas, Bolles and some of the small north FL privates started showing up at the title game year after year in the 90's. 

As much as a hotbed as south FL is now, younger folks might be shocked to know that none of the private schools there were dominating in the 80's, and you didn't hear too many complaints about them...even Aquinas.  The private schools back then were very "white" compared to today.   

I remember when Black inner city kids started showing up en masse on some of these traditionally white teams and thinking to myself, this is not going to go over too well.  All of a sudden a team like Chaminade, which had been an all-white, terrible program for 2 decades, starts competing and folks don't like it.  Anyone around in Broward County in the 70's and 80's seeing today's Cardinal Gibbons and Chaminade's teams know what I am talking about.  Even though there were plenty of Blacks in Broward County then, you did not see them in those schools like you do today.   

        

[Zoe Boy]

On 2/11/2018 at 7:19 PM, OldSchoolLion said:

You nailed it about the domination causing the squawking.  Private schools had every bit as much opportunity to recruit in the past as they they did now, but you didn't hear much complaining until Aquinas, Bolles and some of the small north FL privates started showing up at the title game year after year in the 90's. 

As much as a hotbed as south FL is now, younger folks might be shocked to know that none of the private schools there were dominating in the 80's, and you didn't hear too many complaints about them...even Aquinas.  The private schools back then were very "white" compared to today.   

I remember when Black inner city kids started showing up en masse on some of these traditionally white teams and thinking to myself, this is not going to go over too well.  All of a sudden a team like Chaminade, which had been an all-white, terrible program for 2 decades, starts competing and folks don't like it.  Anyone around in Broward County in the 70's and 80's seeing today's Cardinal Gibbons and Chaminade's teams know what I am talking about.  Even though there were plenty of Blacks in Broward County then, you did not see them in those schools like you do today.   

        

Like BH said theirs other things that factor to it.. Like if my son becomes good in sports and has a chance to go to STA or AHP or even Pace I’m sending him there cause I know he won’t have to worry about fighting and learning under the public school system and I’m live between Carol City , Norland, Miramar , and Hallendale which he can go to any of those schools and ball out but unlike the private schools you have more other pressures that comes your way if you know what i mean..

[OldSchoolLion]

1 hour ago, Zoe Boy said:

Like BH said theirs other things that factor to it.. Like if my son becomes good in sports and has a chance to go to STA or AHP or even Pace I’m sending him there cause I know he won’t have to worry about fighting and learning under the public school system and I’m live between Carol City , Norland, Miramar , and Hallendale which he can go to any of those schools and ball out but unlike the private schools you have more other pressures that comes your way if you know what i mean..

Amen Zoe Boy.  Nobody likes losing to the privates, but if going to a private school can give a kid the structure and foundation for a better life, that is way more important than a game.    

[Zoe Boy]

10 hours ago, OldSchoolLion said:

Amen Zoe Boy.  Nobody likes losing to the privates, but if going to a private school can give a kid the structure and foundation for a better life, that is way more important than a game.    

So that’s why I don’t blame the kids for going to private schools.. Well should I say STA and AHP cause that’s the only 2 schools ppl complain about... Well ppl from up north..

[Mashburns]

We are discussing transferring and how to stop it right? If a kid is at a program and he don't want to be there as a coach will you want that "cancer" spreading through your team or let that player move on and you continue to build your program? We are talking about a rule that honestly will not be around to much longer at the college level which restricts players from playing immediately if they transfer laterally...so if they are arguing to eliminate the rule at the college level it's no way they will be able to pass a rule that is similar in language at the high school level. Their is no way to make a parent/kid stay at a high school that doesn't want to be there by taking away whatever eligibility unless you are willing to do that 1st for every kid regardless of the activity but if you are specifically looking at Football and Basketball you are going up a slippery slope. Parents start the movement years before their child gets to high school, their are kids that play pop warner in 4 or 5 different parks between elementary and middle school, so more times than not those same kids move high schools 2,3, and sometime 4 times are we going to start lobbying for a rule that eliminates park movements lol...   

[OldSchoolLion]

...some food for thought

Parents and kids are looking for the best opportunity to posture themselves for future success.  It's a capitalist mentality.  The problem is that we are pushing the envelope of a publicly funded education system.  What is this system's real purpose?  What should be the boundaries of its use?  After all, someone other than "I" is paying for all of this.  Some parents/kids may expect too much out of it.

I mean, I want my kid to go to be able to go to three different high schools at the same time because each is best in class for certain things and how dare you put limits on me/my kid that prevent me from doing that?  That wreaks of entitlement doesn't it?  Some of you would probably say, "Well, that statement is too overboard.  That is expecting too much."  Well, what really is "too overboard?"  30 years ago most folks would have said what is taking place today is way overboard, and here we are.  Where does it stop?

If kids want to take a career path to athletics, it is quite obvious that the public school system is not a very efficient path.  If it was, kids would not feel a need to be doing all of this transferring. They would have confidence that "I am on the right path."  I can see why some kids may constantly second guess that now.  It must be incredibly stressful for them.

At the very least, all of this transferring is causing a lot of distraction...something kids do not need any more of today.  Kids/parents are using the system(and we can't blame them) to the best of their advantage.  But it is a terrible system for doing what some are trying to force it to do...create a path for a possible career in athletics.

Is it really the purpose of the public ed system to provide maximum opportunities for athletic advancement?  If it is, it's plainly clear schools are not financed for this, ie they cannot afford to pay salaries for "good" coaches who will stick around.  If we think public schools have a responsibility to provide " maximum athletic opportunity," the politicians have to be involved, as much as some do not like hearing it.  If there is enough public outrage, they may very get involved, and it could result in even less education/ athletic funding.  

Sports schools would likely alleviate this tension over "am I on the right path."  The only way we are going to force professional teams to finance sports schools is by putting our foots down and doing something that does not seem intuitive...say that public schools are not about athletic "opportunity" and people should not expect this out of them.  Kids/parents are jumping through loops and team owners are sitting in their ivory towers laughing all the way to the bank. And they are NOT going to change their ways unless something forces them to.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mashburns]

1 hour ago, OldSchoolLion said:

...some food for thought

Parents and kids are looking for the best opportunity to posture themselves for future success.  It's a capitalist mentality.  The problem is that we are pushing the envelope of a publicly funded education system.  What is this system's real purpose?  What should be the boundaries of its use?  After all, someone other than "I" is paying for all of this.  Some parents/kids may expect too much out of it.

I mean, I want my kid to go to be able to go to three different high schools at the same time because each is best in class for certain things and how dare you put limits on me/my kid that prevent me from doing that?  That wreaks of entitlement doesn't it?  Some of you would probably say, "Well, that statement is too overboard.  That is expecting too much."  Well, what really is "too overboard?"  30 years ago most folks would have said what is taking place today is way overboard, and here we are.  Where does it stop?

If kids want to take a career path to athletics, it is quite obvious that the public school system is not a very efficient path.  If it was, kids would not feel a need to be doing all of this transferring. They would have confidence that "I am on the right path."  I can see why some kids may constantly second guess that now.  It must be incredibly stressful for them.

At the very least, all of this transferring is causing a lot of distraction...something kids do not need any more of today.  Kids/parents are using the system(and we can't blame them) to the best of their advantage.  But it is a terrible system for doing what some are trying to force it to do...create a path for a possible career in athletics.

Is it really the purpose of the public ed system to provide maximum opportunities for athletic advancement?  If it is, it's plainly clear schools are not financed for this, ie they cannot afford to pay salaries for "good" coaches who will stick around.  If we think public schools have a responsibility to provide " maximum athletic opportunity," the politicians have to be involved, as much as some do not like hearing it.  If there is enough public outrage, they may very get involved, and it could result in even less education/ athletic funding.  

Sports schools would likely alleviate this tension over "am I on the right path."  The only way we are going to force professional teams to finance sports schools is by putting our foots down and doing something that does not seem intuitive...say that public schools are not about athletic "opportunity" and people should not expect this out of them.  Kids/parents are jumping through loops and team owners are sitting in their ivory towers laughing all the way to the bank. And they are NOT going to change their ways unless something forces them to.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I will argue 30 years ago (I know first hand) kids at that time was doing the exact same thing but the difference is technology broadcasting every move and platforms like this that informs the public of every move of the student athletes which could be a positive but also a negative depending on how it is used. So it gives the illusion what's going on now is something brand new in high school sports...this has been going on for as my knowledge since the 90's here in south florida

[OldSchoolLion]

17 minutes ago, Mashburns said:

I will argue 30 years ago (I know first hand) kids at that time was doing the exact same thing but the difference is technology broadcasting every move and platforms like this that informs the public of every move of the student athletes. So it gives the illusion what's going on now is something brand new in high school sports...this has been going on for as my knowledge since the 90's here in south florida

It ramped up around 1990. And, as you may know, that is the same time that Aquinas and Bolles really emerged as powers...what a coincidence.

That's why I mentioned 30 years, Mashburns.   Mid 80's and before...nothing close to today.  I never remember hearing of a top flight player making 3 moves in high school...maybe one move, that's it.

Back around 1980, Mike Shula(yes, that Shula) transferred to Columbus High to get more exposure and lead Columbus to the state finals(and then went on to play at  Alabama.  He transferred from Chaminade, where his brother David had played and where the Shula family had ties.  It was obvious he was moving for more exposure. Today people would not even raise an eyebrow over such a move. At the time, that was HUGE news...just one transfer.

   

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mashburns]

4 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

It ramped up around 1990. And, as you may know, that is the same time that Aquinas and Bolles really emerged as powers...what a coincidence.

That's why I mentioned 30 years, Mashburns.   Mid 80's and before...nothing close to today.  I never remember hearing of a top flight player making 3 moves in high school...maybe one move, that's it.

Back around 1980, Mike Shula(yes, that Shula) transferred to Columbus High to get more exposure and lead Columbus to the state finals(and then went on to play at  Alabama.  He transferred from Chaminade, where his brother David had played and where the Shula family had ties.  It was obvious he was moving for more exposure. Today people would not even raise an eyebrow over such a move. At the time, that was HUGE news...just one transfer.

   

 

 

 

 

 

 

Right I agree there private schools has open the gate to what we have today but the thing I'm seeing now is private school coaches expressing their issues with losing players to public programs which is a very sharp turn from the norm  

[gatorman-uf]

2 hours ago, OldSchoolLion said:

Sports schools would likely alleviate this tension over "am I on the right path."  The only way we are going to force professional teams to finance sports schools is by putting our foots down and doing something that does not seem intuitive...say that public schools are not about athletic "opportunity" and people should not expect this out of them.  Kids/parents are jumping through loops and team owners are sitting in their ivory towers laughing all the way to the bank. And they are NOT going to change their ways unless something forces them to.

While I have always felt that sports were a school/community event that allowed students to showcase their talents that weren't reading, writing, and math, when the focus is on showcasing individual talent rather than the squad, we get that AAU mentality of just the let the best kids join. 
We even see this in Little League Sports. For me, Little League was a time when you practiced, played, and competed for a local town championship. There might be 8-12 in the division, but you played your friends. You went to school and talked about it. Now, dads refuse to coach players who aren't "stars" or on their travel squad. My town allowed a draft by the coaches, but most coaches didn't know every kid and even if your friends' dad was a coach, there was still no guarantee that you would be on their team. Today, if your son's friends don't end on the team, you refuse to coach. Kids see this behavior and emulate it. 

In reality, IMG is the start of something much bigger. In 10 years, I could see Under Armour, Nike, Adidas, etc all starting Prep Academies. I mean they already sponsor the travel AAU teams, the next step will be the schools. They will start small with basketball and expand up to football.  

[DisabledAccount]

6 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

While I have always felt that sports were a school/community event that allowed students to showcase their talents that weren't reading, writing, and math, when the focus is on showcasing individual talent rather than the squad, we get that AAU mentality of just the let the best kids join. 
We even see this in Little League Sports. For me, Little League was a time when you practiced, played, and competed for a local town championship. There might be 8-12 in the division, but you played your friends. You went to school and talked about it. Now, dads refuse to coach players who aren't "stars" or on their travel squad. My town allowed a draft by the coaches, but most coaches didn't know every kid and even if your friends' dad was a coach, there was still no guarantee that you would be on their team. Today, if your son's friends don't end on the team, you refuse to coach. Kids see this behavior and emulate it. 

In reality, IMG is the start of something much bigger. In 10 years, I could see Under Armour, Nike, Adidas, etc all starting Prep Academies. I mean they already sponsor the travel AAU teams, the next step will be the schools. They will start small with basketball and expand up to football.  

There are academies poping up similar to img but in one sport

 

 

I remember us playing some academy in baseball 2 years ago, they were like img but they only had baseball and i seem to hear of this basketball academy in Gainesville 

 

Soon you will see academies that will specify in a sport in every state unless someone steps up against it but what you have is state politicians taking money under the table and instead of pumping money into publics it's going to charter schools where their kids attend since we know these state legislators don't send their kids to public schools

[OldSchoolLion]

 

6 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

While I have always felt that sports were a school/community event that allowed students to showcase their talents that weren't reading, writing, and math, when the focus is on showcasing individual talent rather than the squad, we get that AAU mentality of just the let the best kids join. 
We even see this in Little League Sports. For me, Little League was a time when you practiced, played, and competed for a local town championship. There might be 8-12 in the division, but you played your friends. You went to school and talked about it. Now, dads refuse to coach players who aren't "stars" or on their travel squad. My town allowed a draft by the coaches, but most coaches didn't know every kid and even if your friends' dad was a coach, there was still no guarantee that you would be on their team. Today, if your son's friends don't end on the team, you refuse to coach. Kids see this behavior and emulate it. 

In reality, IMG is the start of something much bigger. In 10 years, I could see Under Armour, Nike, Adidas, etc all starting Prep Academies. I mean they already sponsor the travel AAU teams, the next step will be the schools. They will start small with basketball and expand up to football.  

I feel really badly for the kids who are not stars.  Can see why some kids sit behind their computers and think sports are not for them.   It must be intimidating as hell.  Even baseball, which used to be every kid's game...the kids playing at higher levels today are giants.

...one good thing about wrestling and martial arts...can be of smaller stature and succeed.