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BrowardHandicapper

5a south/AHP/Hardee

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1 hour ago, BrowardHandicapper said:

Here is some food for thought and this is just referencing "elite" recruits. Not all FBS.  Again, is it really a shocked scenario with rosters of 20+ D1 players on the same team?

https://247sports.com/ContentGallery/National-Signing-Day-2018-Florida-counties-that-produce-most-elite-college-football-recruits-114717279

 

How come loaded teams like Jones and Armwood are never referenced?

DFB traditionally gets way more transfers then private powers like AHP and STA.  We'll leave that one alone though...

Those teams were  stacked just like SFL powers with MORE transfers.  If I am not mistaken Jones had over 30 transfers last year. 

Not a problem when they don't dominate, right?  All of a sudden when a team becomes a "gorilla" though it is a problem, right?

Surely no one has  an agenda against stacked teams, success and dominance. :D 

Well a team can dominate as long as they do it by YOUR standards, right?

My issue is with teams with meteoric rises to prominence.  Coaching legends..George Smith, Bill Castle, etc etc....they and their programs put in their dues.  They were great coaches and had some great talent, but even they could not pull off some of the things I see today.  

It is not a school or coach's fault if they have 4-star recruits banging down the door.  How they handle it is the issue and where sportsmanship comes into play.  I am MUCH more concerned about the lessons we are teaching kids than records or domination.  "Sorry, son, I know you have busted your tail for us for three years, but Johnny 4-star just showed up, so too bad." There is plenty of time for those sorts of tough lessons in college and the adult world.  My "agenda" is about principles, not my team is better than your team.

I have gone out of my way to provide positive recognition of individuals and teams, past and present, public and private.  I don't pimp any individual teams, and the mere fact I don't mention a specific team in a discussion is not a slight or intentional omission.  

No problems with success when it is earned.  Sorry, but putting 10 transfers on the field is not earning success(or sportsman-like) at a high school in my value system, and I would say the same of any team in the entire state.  I understand if others feel differently.  

 

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4 hours ago, OldSchoolLion said:

Between 2010-2015, Chaminade did not win a playoff game.  They were blown out in three of their first-round losses during that time period.  In 2014, they were ranked #4177 in the country(Maxpreps), and in 2015 they were ranked #1479.  In 2016, they were playing for a state title and last year won a title and were ranked #68.  

Between 1996-2015, Cardinal Gibbons won a total of 2 playoff games.  In 2015, they were 4-6 and ranked #1085 in the country(Maxpreps).  In 2016, they were ranked #155 and last year were ranked #95.

Between 2000-2012, AH Plantation had 5 wins and 12 losses in the playoffs.  They never made it past the 1st round of the playoffs in any of those years.  In 2013, AHP won its 5 playoff games by an average point differential of 33 points and was nationally ranked, including top 25 in one poll.   

Earlier this decade, University School in Fort Lauderdale had a meteoric rise to national prominence.  

Anyone see any trends?

 

Aye but they winnin now

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43 minutes ago, Zoe Boy said:

Wow you say in 2013 AHP basically smashed everybody in the playoffs but you failed to mention that they almost didn’t make it to the playoffs that year if Jackson didn’t fumble that game away... 

Good point.  And they barely beat Mainland that year and got whooped by Central.  And since 2013 they have won some games they could have lost.  But I do not think any of it takes away from the fact that they made some dramatic improvements over a relatively short period of time.

I am still waiting for someone to offer reasons for this rise in performance.  I would be happy to hear it was home-grown kids who came around after putting in their dues.  I honestly don't recall the whole story.

 

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25 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

Good point.  And they barely beat Mainland that year and got whooped by Central.  And since 2013 they have won some games they could have lost.  But I do not think any of it takes away from the fact that they made some dramatic improvements over a relatively short period of time.

I am still waiting for someone to offer reasons for this rise in performance.  I would be happy to hear it was home-grown kids who came around after putting in their dues.  I honestly don't recall the whole story.

 

Maybe once they hired a coach that kids wanted to play for they gotten over top.. Remember Sony Micheal is from west park which is county line that split Dade n Broward... He was there since 8 grade and both of his parents work there.. Ok if Sony didn’t go to AHP what HS he could of went to? Hallendale,Miramar , Dr Krop, Norland, Carol City and I’ll even add McArthor and Pace ...

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58 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

 

My issue is with teams with meteoric rises to prominence.  Coaching legends..George Smith, Bill Castle, etc etc....they and their programs put in their dues.  They were great coaches and had some great talent, but even they could not pull off some of the things I see today.  

It is not a school or coach's fault if they have 4-star recruits banging down the door.  How they handle it is the issue and where sportsmanship comes into play.  I am MUCH more concerned about the lessons we are teaching kids than records or domination.  "Sorry, son, I know you have busted your tail for us for three years, but Johnny 4-star just showed up, so too bad." There is plenty of time for those sorts of tough lessons in college and the adult world.  My "agenda" is about principles, not my team is better than your team.

I have gone out of my way to provide positive recognition of individuals and teams, past and present, public and private.  I don't pimp any individual teams, and the mere fact I don't mention a specific team in a discussion is not a slight or intentional omission.  

No problems with success when it is earned.  Sorry, but putting 10 transfers on the field is not earning success(or sportsman-like) at a high school in my value system, and I would say the same of any team in the entire state.  I understand if others feel differently.  

 

That happens to every school.. Piper just got a transfer you think he’s not gonna be a starter come fall? 

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2 minutes ago, Zoe Boy said:

That happens to every school.. Piper just got a transfer you think he’s not gonna be a starter come fall? 

Yes.  And it makes me think how that might impact the life of a kid already there at Piper.  Some might say "too bad."  Easy to do until we are the one impacted.   

       

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3 hours ago, BrowardHandicapper said:

Thank's for your opinion.  Fortunately, for the student-athletes and their families sake your sarcastic and condescending opinion does not dictate FHSAA rules and regulations.

As to how that much talent ends up on one team.  Do you even live in SFL???

I don't know they roll in Hardee but here is SFL for ya...

1. At the present time anywhere in FL , the last I checked any student can transfer anywhere providing the have their own transportation. 

2.  Private schools never had school zones.

3.  Previous to current FHSAA transfer rules,  students had options to attend multiple schools based on overcrowding of zones etc....

4.  Many student athletes families RENT in Broward and Dade, come from broken families etc...It is not your job nor the FHSAA's to dictate how these families live their private family lives.  For example: A family is allowed to move out of a 7 month, annual or even BREAK a lease if they choose to.  Again - not our business.

5.  Magnet and charter schools allow students to attend schools of their academic interest is well.

6. Anyone that has attended youth football in many parts of Broward and Dade and cannot comprehend that they are looking at potentially 10-20 kids per team (or weight class in some cases!)  may have FBS potential in 3-5 years is either naive or a moron.  Considering the fact in many cases , many live in a specific area of Broward or Dade it should not be some shock that many attend the same public school or go off to a private school.   Take the NW Dade or SW Broward area, go watch the youth leagues where many kids are live zoned for Miramar, Carol City, MNW etc....Are you still not getting it and can't fathom how so many land at the same public schools?

Most private schools that have a strong established sports tradition nationwide are generally able to be successful.  Now factor in the huge population and level of football and it should be no shock of loaded private school rosters.  Duh!

 

 

Who is the "gorilla" in this case AHP?  Again, did AHP ever stop Hardee from being successful?

Last I checked they were getting blasted by Dunbar37-17.

If AHP is a "pissed of gorilla" , there are lots of pissed off gorillas out there...I guess Immokalee was also a pissed off gorilla last year as well when they almost beat AHP in their own cage.

What strong established sports tradition? OldschoolLion and myself already pointed out that pre-2013 AHP was just another "good" program. 5a, again this class was 3a, was made up of mostly mid-sized public schools and was a highly competitive class with no single dominant program.  

In fact, study your record books as OldschoolLion does. This notion that Dade & Broward have always produced the top teams is a myth. 

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35 minutes ago, Zoe Boy said:

Maybe once they hired a coach that kids wanted to play for they gotten over top.. Remember Sony Micheal is from west park which is county line that split Dade n Broward... He was there since 8 grade and both of his parents work there.. Ok if Sony didn’t go to AHP what HS he could of went to? Hallendale,Miramar , Dr Krop, Norland, Carol City and I’ll even add McArthor and Pace ...

Byron Walker is one of the winningest coaches in the history of Florida and won multiple state titles as a coach at Glades Day.  He won 2 state titles as a player at Glades Central.  He coached at AH Plantation for 19 years and showed he had what it took to lead AHP to a title game in 1998.  I would think if he lost his touch and kids did not want to play for him any more, he would not have been a coach there for so long.      

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27 minutes ago, Hwy17 said:

I seem to recall the STA fans whinning a lot those years they'd get to state and lose to Lakeland. 

Sta is one of several fan bases that "whine" when things don't go their way

 

I could name several others but ik it would just cause certain people to come in and "cover their flaws"

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13 minutes ago, Hwy17 said:

What strong established sports tradition? OldschoolLion and myself already pointed out that pre-2013 AHP was just another "good" program. 5a, again this class was 3a, was made up of mostly mid-sized public schools and was a highly competitive class with no single dominant program.  

In fact, study your record books as OldschoolLion does. This notion that Dade & Broward have always produced the top teams is a myth. 

Panhandle used to be the beasts of FL but times change and the talent in SFL is best talent pool in the nation 

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47 minutes ago, Hwy17 said:

What strong established sports tradition? OldschoolLion and myself already pointed out that pre-2013 AHP was just another "good" program. 5a, again this class was 3a, was made up of mostly mid-sized public schools and was a highly competitive class with no single dominant program.  

In fact, study your record books as OldschoolLion does. This notion that Dade & Broward have always produced the top teams is a myth. 

I never stated this.   That was conversation that you two were at with ColumbiaHighFan reading your "Three Yards and a Cloud of Dust " playbooks while watching Rudy.....Admit it, your just sorry that a team named Dunbar ruined your season last year and sour a team named Lemon Bay is on Hardee's heals every year.  I know....It's the world against Hardee, right.  There all out to get Hardee and the reason for Hardee's failures totally has to do with the Broward and Dade powers.  They are what is holding the Hardee program back.

 

Please just tell me why SFL or any stacked teams statewide are holding Hardee back right now.  How are those teams or the new rules  relative to the reason Hardee cannot get to Orlando or win in the playoffs?

 

 

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1 minute ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Panhandle used to be the beasts of FL but times change and the talent in SFL is best talent pool in the nation 

I have mentioned this in many posts.  Miami-Dade won 0 state titles in the 1980's.  Panhandle teams won 5 state titles in Class 4A (the largest at the time) alone.

The population in Miami-Dade in 1980 was about 1.625 million people.  The population of the entire Panhandle today is still over 200,000 less than Miami-Dade was nearly 38 years ago!   Miami had the Dolphins, so it's not as if football wasn't a big deal in Miami at the time. 

 

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8 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

The new transfer rules actually will help the state

 

It helps rural schools because guess what

 

Metros like Jacksonville, Tampa, Orlando, Miami all have loose zones and players can switch schools easily

 

Rural areas could not get transfers easily under old rules

But let's blame state powers and especially the Broward and Dade powers.  If all of this stopped tomorrow the state would feel the wrath and fire of Hardee football who is tired of being held back by this rule.  Sometimes I feel this rule was actually created to hold teams like Hardee back from getting too strong.

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4 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

I have mentioned this in many posts.  Miami-Dade won 0 state titles in the 1980's.  Panhandle teams won 5 state titles in Class 4A (the largest at the time) alone.

The population in Miami-Dade in 1980 was about 1.625 million people.  The population of the entire Panhandle today is still over 200,000 less than Miami-Dade was nearly 38 years ago!   Miami had the Dolphins, so it's not as if football wasn't a big deal in Miami at the time. 

 

Keep in mind that changes in coaching playbooks might have had biggest impact 

 

Most teams back in the 80s weren't running 4 wr sets

 

A lot (especially in the panhandle) were running stuff like the wing t 

 

That stuff used the skill advantage of north Florida (big strong guys on the line and good powerful runners) 

 

But with spread being so common it's became a speed game and north Florida teams are generally slow so they can't compete with SFL speed

 

That has had a lot to do with the decline of north florida and the panhandle 

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1 hour ago, OldSchoolLion said:

Byron Walker is one of the winningest coaches in the history of Florida and won multiple state titles as a coach at Glades Day.  He won 2 state titles as a player at Glades Central.  He coached at AH Plantation for 19 years and showed he had what it took to lead AHP to a title game in 1998.  I would think if he lost his touch and kids did not want to play for him any more, he would not have been a coach there for so long.      

Great resume but I don't know what's going on over in Southwest Ranches with Byron Walker and Archbishop McCarthy but the last two years kids have been leaving there in droves.  Any idea why?

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38 minutes ago, BrowardHandicapper said:

I never stated this.   That was conversation that you two were at with ColumbiaHighFan reading your "Three Yards and a Cloud of Dust " playbooks while watching Rudy.....Admit it, your just sorry that a team named Dunbar ruined your season last year and sour a team named Lemon Bay is on Hardee's heals every year.  I know....It's the world against Hardee, right.  There all out to get Hardee and the reason for Hardee's failures totally has to do with the Broward and Dade powers.  They are what is holding the Hardee program back.

 

Please just tell me why SFL or any stacked teams statewide are holding Hardee back right now.  How are those teams or the new rules  relative to the reason Hardee cannot get to Orlando or win in the playoffs?

 

 

Actually you did in a similar discussion as this one about a year ago. You said to me "Haven't Dade-Broward always been dominant going back?" To which I replied, "I remember when small towns like Frostproof, Live Oak, Bartow, and Lake Butler were the top programs".

And why do you feel the need to start attacking the school I support? I have never blamed anyone for holding them back.  In fact they over-achieve if you ask me. Is it because I am critical of the open transfer policies that are now in place which allow certain programs in metro areas to hoard all the talent and while remaing in a smaller classification? 

 Answer me this: If its not uncommon for Miami area schools to have a lot of FBS prospects on as you mentioned earlier, why are there any bad teams in Dade county? I believe it was last year a mediocre Winter Haven team played and beat a team team from Dade, down there. And we all know Winter Haven, although good, isn't loaded with top prospects.

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3 minutes ago, Hwy17 said:

Actually you did in a similar discussion as this one about a year ago. You said to me "Haven't Dade-Broward always been dominant going back?" To which I replied, "I remember when small towns like Frostproof, Live Oak, Bartow, and Lake Butler were the top programs".

And why do you feel the need to start attacking the school I support? I have never blamed anyone for holding them back.  In fact they over-achieve if you ask me. Is it because I am critical of the open transfer policies that are now in place which allow certain programs in metro areas to hoard all the talent and while remaing in a smaller classification? 

 Answer me this: If its not uncommon for Miami area schools to have a lot of FBS prospects on as you mentioned earlier, why are there any bad teams in Dade county? I believe it was last year a mediocre Winter Haven team played and beat a team team from Dade, down there. And we all know Winter Haven, although good, isn't loaded with top prospects.

I'm not denying that conversation we had but I was probably referencing that Broward and Dade was stacked with players and had several good teams but perhaps not as many as the last few years.

Winter Haven crushed Killian in a pre-season game in 2016.  That is what I remember off the top of my head.  Not sure how many times they have played SFL teams of late but Winter Haven is Winter Haven and Hardee is Hardee.  I think in recent year we both would agree that Winter Haven is not only a better team then Hardee but generally is more talented overall?

Immokallee is another team that traditionally is not heavily loaded that is very good.  I'm not denying these teams can't compete and sometimes upset powers.  So I ask you if teams like Immokallee which is a 5A rural like Hardee can compete with the top teams sometimes, why can't Hardee of late???

Why can't Hardee even advance in the playoffs?  

Do you think Baker County was a fit team to play for a 5A State Championship in the State of Florida?

You have a problem with teams hoarding "all" the top players but a team like Baker County playing for a State Championship in FLORIDA 5A is justified?  Really?

 

There are bad teams in Dade and Broward County.  I'm not denying that.  My argument is simply a team like Hardee is not being held back by stacked teams.    I'm not attacking the school that you support.  I'm stating facts and clarifying that the reason Hardee cannot be successful has nothing to do with certain programs in metro areas "hoarding all " the talent.  If teams are hoarding all of the talent they why are there 10-20 teams with 20+ total rostered players with FBS offers annually?

5A is not necessarily a "small" classification.  Last I checked there were teams just as (or more so)  stacked in 1A, 2A, 3A and 4A as 5A.

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16 minutes ago, BrowardHandicapper said:

I'm not denying that conversation we had but I was probably referencing that Broward and Dade was stacked with players and had several good teams but perhaps not as many as the last few years.

Winter Haven crushed Killian in a pre-season game in 2016.  That is what I remember off the top of my head.  Not sure how many times they have played SFL teams of late but Winter Haven is Winter Haven and Hardee is Hardee.  I think in recent year we both would agree that Winter Haven is not only a better team then Hardee but generally is more talented overall?

Immokallee is another team that traditionally is not heavily loaded that is very good.  I'm not denying these teams can't compete and sometimes upset powers.  So I ask you if teams like Immokallee which is a 5A rural like Hardee can compete with the top teams sometimes, why can't Hardee of late???

Why can't Hardee even advance in the playoffs?  

Do you think Baker County was a fit team to play for a 5A State Championship in the State of Florida?

You have a problem with teams hoarding "all" the top players but a team like Baker County playing for a State Championship in FLORIDA 5A is justified?  Really?

 

There are bad teams in Dade and Broward County.  I'm not denying that.  My argument is simply a team like Hardee is not being held back by stacked teams.    I'm not attacking the school that you support.  I'm stating facts and clarifying that the reason Hardee cannot be successful has nothing to do with certain programs in metro areas "hoarding all " the talent.  If teams are hoarding all of the talent they why are there 10-20 teams with 20+ total rostered players with FBS offers annually?

5A is not necessarily a "small" classification.  Last I checked there were teams just as (or more so)  stacked in 1A, 2A, 3A and 4A as 5A.

Nice pivot after blatantly attacking the school I support because of my opposing point of view.

#1: The conversation from last year had to do with the rise of south Fl teams; i.e. AHP, STA and a couple of others as if its always been.

#2. Winter Haven is a 7a school, so shouldn't they have more talent than Hardee?

#3.  Why is Hardee struggling winning in the playoffs?  I think it has to do with coaching more than anything. Last two years they were ahead at half-time only to blow a lead.

#4. Baker county deserved to play for a championship because they defeated the others in their half of the state.

#5. What I have a problem with is a stacked team, the equivalent of an 8A school winning the 5a title every year.

5A is a mid-sized school class. 

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14 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Baker County was just the best team in a overall weak region of the state but they were never going to beat AHP 

 

They didn't have the speed to matchup with them 

But that is not a problem when a 5A rep shows up at a State Championship looking like that, right?

It appears others would prefer to find an issue with the team performing well and blame that for the reason for that blow out. 
SMH...

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4 minutes ago, BrowardHandicapper said:

But that is not a problem when a 5A rep shows up at a State Championship looking like that, right?

It appears others would prefer to find an issue with the team performing well and blame that for the reason for that blow out. 
SMH...

You could try suggesting a playoff layout that could have 2 SFL teams playing for a championship but i think a heavy majority would vote it down

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5 minutes ago, BrowardHandicapper said:

But that is not a problem when a 5A rep shows up at a State Championship looking like that, right?

It appears others would prefer to find an issue with the team performing well and blame that for the reason for that blow out. 
SMH...

It is a problem 

 

It shows the overall decline of North Florida 

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29 minutes ago, Hwy17 said:

Nice pivot after blatantly attacking the school I support because of my opposing point of view.

#1: The conversation from last year had to do with the rise of south Fl teams; i.e. AHP, STA and a couple of others as if its always been.

#2. Winter Haven is a 7a school, so shouldn't they have more talent than Hardee?

#3.  Why is Hardee struggling winning in the playoffs?  I think it has to do with coaching more than anything. Last two years they were ahead at half-time only to blow a lead.

#4. Baker county deserved to play for a championship because they defeated the others in their half of the state.

#5. What I have a problem with is a stacked team, the equivalent of an 8A school winning the 5a title every year.

5A is a mid-sized school class. 

Okay..Fine game on.  Your call.  

 

1.  I'm not denying that topic but I am surprised by the details that you state...I know AHP has not been a super power for long and I know STA has great teams in the past but not the run they have had in recent years.

2. LOL ..What does that mean? So what if WH  are a 7A school.  Do you want to see what some 1, 2, and 3A schools would do to Hardee? There are plenty of 1,2,3, and 4A schools that can show Hardee how to take care of business with teams like Dunbar ..LOL

3. Yeah, Okay...appreciate the answer but as much as OldSchoolLion has convinced you.  "Coaching" is likely not the jist of the reason Hardee is struggling in the post-season.

4. Sure.. A true representative what a 5A in Florida High School football should look like.  Glad to see you have high standards for FL HS football.

5. There are plenty of 1,2,3 and 4A schools out there that could have won 5A States last year over BC.  There were also plenty of 4-5 5A schools capable of upsetting AHP.  The 5A team that faced AHP at states is not one of them .  Not sure how much you get away from Highway 17 and Hardee but consider getting out more.  Take a trip to Fort Myers, Sarasota, Tampa, Orlando or even Trez Powell if you get the opportunity.   A stacked team is not the only reason BC lost that game.  It surely had nothing to do with overall team speed, right?

"5A is a mid-sized school class. " That is somewhat correct.  Considering there are 8 classifications, "5" is slightly above the mid point of 4 and you have a mid/mid upper class.  How about we send Madison County and Pahokee out to Hardee to teach you a thing or two about classification size and talent.

 

 

Next.

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12 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

It is a problem 

 

It shows the overall decline of North Florida 

Glad someone can admit that.  Stacked teams in SFL are not going away.  Sometimes if something is not working you have to try something else.  Ponte Vedra seemed to figured it out quickly.  Venice took advantage of a opportunity in 2017. ...

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