Promotion/Relegation

[gatorman-uf]

5 hours ago, Nulli Secundus said:

You showed me yours, now I'll show you mine, LOL!

Class reduction - The first thing I would do is combine classes 1A & 2A, then 3A & 4A for total of 6 classes (1A-6A).  The reason I decided to go in this direction is the face that Classes 1A, 2A, 3A & 4A are roughly have the size of the larger classes and for this reason, more than half of all schools make the playoffs.  The also contributes to the fact that half the schools have BYE in the first round as there are not enough schools in those classes to fulfill 16 1st round games like classes 5A-8A.

I would reduce to 6 classes as well, but it would be over a period of 5 years (and I am keeping the current 1A). If the FHSAA's calls me up to do this, then I will sit and do the math, but until then this is what the finals look like. 
6A - 32 teams (All make playoffs, 70% of schedule against other 6A schools)
5A - 64 teams (50% make playoffs, 60% of schedule against other 5A schools)
4A - 96 teams (33% make playoffs, 60% of schedule against other 4A schools)
3A - 120 teams (27% make playoffs, 50% of schedule against other 3A schools)
2A - 140 teams (23% make playoffs or 46% make playoffs and compete to a regional championship)

 

[gatorman-uf]

3 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:

I understand the premise of super teams and how they are ruining the sport which I agree is happening.  How to fix that remains murky with the underlying feeders to this situation still in place.  And I get the idea of giving teams hope, but in the end you get what I described.  Best teams in the top third, average in the middle and poor in the bottom third.   Guess each individual school has to decide if they can take pride in that type of scenario.

Does Trinity or Bolles take pride in the fact that they win a state championship in a clearly weakened classification and before the season starts 90% of the teams have no chance of beating them? I think we take pride in the idea of an accomplishment, a team wins a state championship against other similar type teams (teams with a history of losing, maybe this is the catalyst to become a mediocre team).

[Ray Icaza]

5 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

Does Trinity or Bolles take pride in the fact that they win a state championship in a clearly weakened classification and before the season starts 90% of the teams have no chance of beating them? I think we take pride in the idea of an accomplishment, a team wins a state championship against other similar type teams (teams with a history of losing, maybe this is the catalyst to become a mediocre team).

System is broken, all agree.  Just not on the fix.

[Nulli Secundus]

13 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

The difference is that there's really only 3 good privates in Duval and they are all in 4a Or lower 

 

In SFL there are schools like Columbus, STA, AHP and Cardinal Gibbons who have been in upper classifications for a while (yes Cardinal Gibbons is 4a now but they used to share a district with AHP)

 

That's in addition to the publics in Dade county who hault several Broward publics in their path but even so those Broward County publics have had more success than the publics in Duval county

 

 

Broward public schools hold a 6-4 lead over Duval Public schools in title games.  Hardly a barn burner.

Broward public schools have a 63-49 advantage over Dade public schools.  That's only part of the story as most of Broward county's titles are produced by private schools whereas Dade's titles are heavily public.  That's a post for another day.  However, for the 63 head to head games that Broward has won against Dade, only 2 of those teams went on to win a state title.  

[Jesse]

55 minutes ago, Nulli Secundus said:

Broward public schools hold a 6-4 lead over Duval Public schools in title games.  Hardly a barn burner.

Broward public schools have a 63-49 advantage over Dade public schools.  That's only part of the story as most of Broward county's titles are produced by private schools whereas Dade's titles are heavily public.  That's a post for another day.  However, for the 63 head to head games that Broward has won against Dade, only 2 of those teams went on to win a state title.  

Is madison county top 5 county in Florida football.  Broward, dade, Duval, madison, 

[DisabledAccount]

1 hour ago, gatorman-uf said:

I would reduce to 6 classes as well, but it would be over a period of 5 years (and I am keeping the current 1A). If the FHSAA's calls me up to do this, then I will sit and do the math, but until then this is what the finals look like. 
6A - 32 teams (All make playoffs, 70% of schedule against other 6A schools)
5A - 64 teams (50% make playoffs, 60% of schedule against other 5A schools)
4A - 96 teams (33% make playoffs, 60% of schedule against other 4A schools)
3A - 120 teams (27% make playoffs, 50% of schedule against other 3A schools)
2A - 140 teams (23% make playoffs or 46% make playoffs and compete to a regional championship)

 

How would you force teams to have 70% of their schedule against other teams in the classification

 

Will they be in districts or do teams have to beg to get others to play them at their own expense?

 

Also you could have cases of maybe 3 or 4 teams in North Florida and everyone else Orlando or further south so is the state gonna help with regular season travel costs in the scenario

 

 

Now personally I don't care what travel teams have to do but if your gonna suggest that idea those will be questions that will get brought up quickly with that aspect 

[Tigerskin]

1 hour ago, gatorman-uf said:

I would reduce to 6 classes as well, but it would be over a period of 5 years (and I am keeping the current 1A). If the FHSAA's calls me up to do this, then I will sit and do the math, but until then this is what the finals look like. 
6A - 32 teams (All make playoffs, 70% of schedule against other 6A schools)
5A - 64 teams (50% make playoffs, 60% of schedule against other 5A schools)
4A - 96 teams (33% make playoffs, 60% of schedule against other 4A schools)
3A - 120 teams (27% make playoffs, 50% of schedule against other 3A schools)
2A - 140 teams (23% make playoffs or 46% make playoffs and compete to a regional championship)

 

I don't like yours because 1A Rural is the same as the other classes , Madison with the advantage of not counting the charter school will win 1A  every year unless you do like Trenton go get a lot of transfers and i thought that is what everybody complains about. I like Nulli system way better move us 1A rural in with the smaller privates not named TCA or UC because if this Metro/Suburban did pass we rather going into the new 2A then stay 1A because we would have a better chance to win.

 

[DisabledAccount]

8 minutes ago, Jesse said:

Is madison county top 5 county in Florida football.  Broward, dade, Duval, madison, 

No county of 1 team will ever be top 5 overall county in the state 

1 hour ago, gatorman-uf said:

Does Trinity or Bolles take pride in the fact that they win a state championship in a clearly weakened classification and before the season starts 90% of the teams have no chance of beating them? I think we take pride in the idea of an accomplishment, a team wins a state championship against other similar type teams (teams with a history of losing, maybe this is the catalyst to become a mediocre team).

Well Bolles hasn't exactly won state lately so clearly their classification isn't that weak 

 

Now 4a region 1 after Bolles is weak but moment you get out of that region there is some good competition for the size of the classification

[Tigerskin]

1 hour ago, gatorman-uf said:

Does Trinity or Bolles take pride in the fact that they win a state championship in a clearly weakened classification and before the season starts 90% of the teams have no chance of beating them? I think we take pride in the idea of an accomplishment, a team wins a state championship against other similar type teams (teams with a history of losing, maybe this is the catalyst to become a mediocre team).

I could ask the same thing of Madison rural schools can not compete with what they have , if the system stays  Madison will have the most State championship of any class in the next 10 years.

[DisabledAccount]

1 hour ago, gatorman-uf said:

Does Trinity or Bolles take pride in the fact that they win a state championship in a clearly weakened classification and before the season starts 90% of the teams have no chance of beating them? I think we take pride in the idea of an accomplishment, a team wins a state championship against other similar type teams (teams with a history of losing, maybe this is the catalyst to become a mediocre team).

Now see this I completely agree with 

 

I think the gap we have is what we define as similar typed teams 

 

 

Your looking at winning percentage regardless of size or maybe just uses current classes and promoting them (honestly I would prefer the system that starts with a blank slate and moves away from student enrollment numbers) 

 

I feel that the only way to get like minded teams is to divide classes by the size of the counties 

 

We all have an idea but we know a few things for sure 

 

 

1) what we currently have doesn't work and won't work going forward

 

2) open transfer movement has created a lot of issues 

 

3) student enrollment is becoming less and less viable an option for classifying teams 

 

4) until we have a system that applies balance no playoff system will actually work 

[DisabledAccount]

1 minute ago, Tigerskin said:

I could ask the same thing of Madison rural schools can not compete with what they have , if the system stays  Madison will have the most State championship of any class in the next 10 years.

Well If it wasn't for 1a designation Madison would be in 3a so they would be likely getting beat by TCA or chaminade each year 

 

So basically 2011-2012 Madison teams 

 

Though people forget it took them I believe 3 or 4 years in 1A to finally win a title, the teams in the class just kept getting worse 

[DisabledAccount]

I think the 1a rural thing does a lot of great things but there are also a bit of rural schools who have larger numbers and are forced to compete in districts with teams from counties of 1m people who recruit and are expected to have the same ability to compete for a title because their student enrollment numbers are close which is the biggest flaw of the current system 

[DisabledAccount]

1 hour ago, Nulli Secundus said:

Broward public schools hold a 6-4 lead over Duval Public schools in title games.  Hardly a barn burner.

Broward public schools have a 63-49 advantage over Dade public schools.  That's only part of the story as most of Broward county's titles are produced by private schools whereas Dade's titles are heavily public.  That's a post for another day.  However, for the 63 head to head games that Broward has won against Dade, only 2 of those teams went on to win a state title.  

Okay fair enough

 

I thought you were implying that the private schools in Duval were keeping publics from winning titles when in reality most up here just drop the ball 

 

But I am familiar that Broward privates have done better historically than Broward publics vs say what Dade publics have done 

 

Personally I think Broward publics just lack stability and yet in Dade the privates just don't invest as much as the privates in Broward do towards football

[Jesse]

20 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Well If it wasn't for 1a designation Madison would be in 3a so they would be likely getting beat by TCA or chaminade each year 

 

So basically 2011-2012 Madison teams 

 

Though people forget it took them I believe 3 or 4 years in 1A to finally win a title, the teams in the class just kept getting worse 

Dude Madison would beat them teams . Yeah it took 2 years . They ain't getting worse dude I know 1a better than anyone on this entire forum.  Some teams have gotten really good or really bad or stay the same. So don't say unless you know Buddy. 

[gatorman-uf]

13 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

How would you force teams to have 70% of their schedule against other teams in the classification

Will they be in districts or do teams have to beg to get others to play them at their own expense?

Also you could have cases of maybe 3 or 4 teams in North Florida and everyone else Orlando or further south so is the state gonna help with regular season travel costs in the scenario

Now personally I don't care what travel teams have to do but if your gonna suggest that idea those will be questions that will get brought up quickly with that aspect 

You trust the schools to do it, if they fail to do it the FHSAA steps in. Most of these schools would rather play competitive schools. (If it became too cumbersome it could be dropped, but until we sort all the teams out (takes 5 years), we don't know).

 

10 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Now see this I completely agree with 

I think the gap we have is what we define as similar typed teams 

Your looking at winning percentage regardless of size or maybe just uses current classes and promoting them (honestly I would prefer the system that starts with a blank slate and moves away from student enrollment numbers) 

I feel that the only way to get like minded teams is to divide classes by the size of the counties 

We all have an idea but we know a few things for sure 

1) what we currently have doesn't work and won't work going forward
2) open transfer movement has created a lot of issues 
3) student enrollment is becoming less and less viable an option for classifying teams 
4) until we have a system that applies balance no playoff system will actually work 

I would too, but I also recognize reality. Coaches/ADs are too scared of that kind of change. You spoon feed it to them, so that the changes aren't so sudden and they barely notice the whole system is changed after 5 years. If you try a blank slate (which is kinda what the FHSAA tried a couple of years ago, it shocks the system too much).

As for dividing by Metro/Suburban, Let's use Baker, Columbia, Alachua, and Marion.
Baker County K-12 hovers around 5.4K
Columbia County K-12 hovers around 10K
Alachua County K-12 hovers around 30K
Marion County K-12 hovers around 43K

The solution we are told is that Baker County should be able to compete against Marion County, despite the fact that Marion is nearly 8 times the size. If county size is the problem, that we need Metro/Suburban/Rural classifications to truly differentiate.

 

[Jesse]

26 minutes ago, Tigerskin said:

I could ask the same thing of Madison rural schools can not compete with what they have , if the system stays  Madison will have the most State championship of any class in the next 10 years.

Yes sir trenton fan. Madison will rule as king of 1A forever. And still smack anyone who has a problem with it.

[Nulli Secundus]

19 minutes ago, Jesse said:

Is madison county top 5 county in Florida football.  Broward, dade, Duval, madison, 

In playoff win percentage, Yes.  In finals appearances, No.  In titles, No.

[Jesse]

1 minute ago, Nulli Secundus said:

In playoff win percentage, Yes.  In finals appearances, No.  In titles, No.

Guess what they up there though.

[gatorman-uf]

29 minutes ago, Tigerskin said:

I could ask the same thing of Madison rural schools can not compete with what they have , if the system stays  Madison will have the most State championship of any class in the next 10 years.

In one of my other posts about promotion/relegation, I have suggested that the top "rural school" switches places with the lowest ranked rural school not in 1A regardless of size. I mean I am surprised that more rural school people aren't upset at the Sneads Volleyball team and their 9 straight state championships.

[Nulli Secundus]

14 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

In one of my other posts about promotion/relegation, I have suggested that the top "rural school" switches places with the lowest ranked rural school not in 1A regardless of size. I mean I am surprised that more rural school people aren't upset at the Sneads Volleyball team and their 9 straight state championships.

Football is the flagship sport, followed by basketball, baseball and soccer and the last 3 are interchangeable depending on what a school is best at.  Sadly, the lack pf publicity plays into that.  It just goes to show what people are willing to complain about and what they let slide.

[DisabledAccount]

39 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

You trust the schools to do it, if they fail to do it the FHSAA steps in. Most of these schools would rather play competitive schools. (If it became too cumbersome it could be dropped, but until we sort all the teams out (takes 5 years), we don't know).

 

I would too, but I also recognize reality. Coaches/ADs are too scared of that kind of change. You spoon feed it to them, so that the changes aren't so sudden and they barely notice the whole system is changed after 5 years. If you try a blank slate (which is kinda what the FHSAA tried a couple of years ago, it shocks the system too much).

As for dividing by Metro/Suburban, Let's use Baker, Columbia, Alachua, and Marion.
Baker County K-12 hovers around 5.4K
Columbia County K-12 hovers around 10K
Alachua County K-12 hovers around 30K
Marion County K-12 hovers around 43K

The solution we are told is that Baker County should be able to compete against Marion County, despite the fact that Marion is nearly 8 times the size. If county size is the problem, that we need Metro/Suburban/Rural classifications to truly differentiate.

 

Well that's kinda what I drew up a while back but how would something like that need to be set up to work the best and still give it a shot of being passed by the state?

[Jesse]

2 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Well that's kinda what I drew up a while back but how would something like that need to be set up to work the best and still give it a shot of being passed by the state?

You didn't answer my post, Madison owns trinity christian and 1A teams trend more up than down. Literally look at the rankings. 

[DisabledAccount]

49 minutes ago, Jesse said:

Dude Madison would beat them teams . Yeah it took 2 years . They ain't getting worse dude I know 1a better than anyone on this entire forum.  Some teams have gotten really good or really bad or stay the same. So don't say unless you know Buddy. 

You talk about plenty of teams you know nothing about just like you think Madison County could beat Apopka, TCA, and compete with Miami Central

 

I do a much better job ranking than anyone on here can do and certainly better than you, when you prove you can hang in a discussion you will get credibility

 

When I look at 1A I see a classification that takes a serious dip after the Madison and Hawthornes of the world and occasionally a pahokee can be a threat 

 

And it was at least 3 years because Madison lost to Trenton in 2015 and pahokee in 2016 before finally winning which I believe would have been year 3 in 1A

[DisabledAccount]

8 minutes ago, Jesse said:

You didn't answer my post, Madison owns trinity christian and 1A teams trend more up than down. Literally look at the rankings. 

Owns? You all haven't played TCA in a decade 

 

You all beat them the same year you all almost beat colquitt county 

 

This past year Madison got their teeth kicked in by a Valdosta team who spent the entire off-season trying to handle the media firestorm of Rush propst being forced out after only one season and hadn't been an elite program in 2 decades 

 

Not to mention TCA is a lot better now than they were back then

 

 

In 2011 Columbia was beating Riverside (then known as Lee) 63-10 type games but does that mean shit now? No! 

[DisabledAccount]

30 minutes ago, Nulli Secundus said:

Football is the flagship sport, followed by basketball, baseball and soccer and the last 3 are interchangeable depending on what a school is best at.  Sadly, the lack pf publicity plays into that.  It just goes to show what people are willing to complain about and what they let slide.

Based on experience here at my school I would say softball overtook soccer after they won a state title 

 

Soccer here probably doesn't get more than 30 fans a game