FL Regular Season Scheduling Needs to Get with the Times

[OldSchoolLion]

I could live with the playoffs the way they are now if regular season scheduling in FL got better.  We could have some incredible matchups.  How does regular season scheduling in FL compare versus Georgia?  Below is a sample. 

This past weekend, nationally-ranked Colquitt County in southern GA traveled north to play nationally-ranked Grayson in Atlanta.  And 5A Buford got thumped by 7A Archer in a battle of Top 10 GA teams.  

Last week, Atlanta perennial power Parkview went down to south GA and lost a war with perennial power Tift County.  And Colquitt traveled to central GA to play against perennial power Warner Robins.  Milton, the GA team that thumped Cardinal Gibbons, lost its last two games against non-region Atlanta powerhouses. 

Some of us watched the Corky Kell Classic at the beginning of the season that saw some of Georgia's better teams face off.  Lowndes went north to Atlanta a few weeks ago and lost to Parkview. And in addition to this, GA teams are finding space in their schedules to play OOS games.  I could go on...

Matchups of Top 25 teams in Georgia are not uncommon.  And teams travel across counties to make them happen.  Regular season games like Atlantic vs Northwestern, Lakeland vs St Thomas Aquinas, and Columbia vs Wekiva happen in Georgia.  When such games do happen in FL, what do we get?  Godby vs Titusville, Vero Beach vs Dr Krop, Cooper City vs Lakeland.   At least Vero vs Venice and Southridge vs Rockledge are a step in the right direction.  But it is absolutely mindblowing that teams like STA and Central have never played each before now.  

Below are the marquis, in-state, non-district matchups I can think of so far this season in FL...3 Broward vs Dade and 1 Polk vs Orange...big deal.  Like south FL, there are multiple counties in the Atlanta metro and teams there routinely cross county borders to play each other.  The purpose here isn't to say "Georgia football is better than FL football."  It is simply to put some perspective as to how FL scheduling could be so much better from a fan perspective.  

Carol City @ AHP

Columbus @ Carol City

Northwestern @ Columbus

Northwestern @ South Dade

Central @ STA

Central @ Cardinal Gibbons

Deerfield Beach @ Chaminade

AHP @ Chaminade

Dwyer @ Atlantic

Armwood @ Plant

TBT @ Armwood

Lakeland @ Apopka

[Hwy17]

1 hour ago, OldSchoolLion said:

I could live with the playoffs the way they are now if regular season scheduling in FL got better.  We could have some incredible matchups.  How does regular season scheduling in FL compare versus Georgia?  Below is a sample. 

This past weekend, nationally-ranked Colquitt County in southern GA traveled north to play nationally-ranked Grayson in Atlanta.  And 5A Buford got thumped by 7A Archer in a battle of Top 10 GA teams.  

Last week, Atlanta perennial power Parkview went down to south GA and lost a war with perennial power Tift County.  And Colquitt traveled to central GA to play against perennial power Warner Robins.  Milton, the GA team that thumped Cardinal Gibbons, lost its last two games against non-region Atlanta powerhouses. 

Some of us watched the Corky Kell Classic at the beginning of the season that saw some of Georgia's better teams face off.  Lowndes went north to Atlanta a few weeks ago and lost to Parkview. And in addition to this, GA teams are finding space in their schedules to play OOS games.  I could go on...

Matchups of Top 25 teams in Georgia are not uncommon.  And teams travel across counties to make them happen.  Regular season games like Atlantic vs Northwestern, Lakeland vs St Thomas Aquinas, and Columbia vs Wekiva happen in Georgia.  When such games do happen in FL, what do we get?  Godby vs Titusville, Vero Beach vs Dr Krop, Cooper City vs Lakeland.   At least Vero vs Venice and Southridge vs Rockledge are a step in the right direction.  But it is absolutely mindblowing that teams like STA and Central have never played each before now.  

Below are the marquis, in-state, non-district matchups I can think of so far this season in FL...3 Broward vs Dade and 1 Polk vs Orange...big deal.  Like south FL, there are multiple counties in the Atlanta metro and teams there routinely cross county borders to play each other.  The purpose here isn't to say "Georgia football is better than FL football."  It is simply to put some perspective as to how FL scheduling could be so much better from a fan perspective.  

Carol City @ AHP

Columbus @ Carol City

Northwestern @ Columbus

Northwestern @ South Dade

Central @ STA

Central @ Cardinal Gibbons

Deerfield Beach @ Chaminade

AHP @ Chaminade

Dwyer @ Atlantic

Armwood @ Plant

TBT @ Armwood

Lakeland @ Apopka

Does Georgia allow more flexibility with their scheduling? Do they play in state mandated districts, where district games must be played on certain dates?  Some county school boards in Florida, like Hillsborough & Polk, don't let their public schools travel out of county or more than 50 miles done so for budget reasons. Lakeland I guess is an exception but they got a big booster club a lot of schools just don't have.  I've talked with a former AD at our school about this once.  He told me how hard it is sometimes to fill out a schedule and was reluctant to sign a one-year contract knowing he'd have trouble finding a game to fill that spot the next year.  Plus there are some "rival" type games that you just have to have because its expected to have.  So when you have 5 or 6 district games, plus a couple that are expected to be played no mater what, that only leaves one or two opening.  If your in a county that restricts travel, then you are forced to play the school down the road.

[OldSchoolLion]

4 minutes ago, Hwy17 said:

Does Georgia allow more flexibility with their scheduling? Do they play in state mandated districts, where district games must be played on certain dates?  Some county school boards in Florida, like Hillsborough & Polk, don't let their public schools travel out of county or more than 50 miles done so for budget reasons. Lakeland I guess is an exception but they got a big booster club a lot of schools just don't have.  I've talked with a former AD at our school about this once.  He told me how hard it is sometimes to fill out a schedule and was reluctant to sign a one-year contract knowing he'd have trouble finding a game to fill that spot the next year.  Plus there are some "rival" type games that you just have to have because its expected to have.  So when you have 5 or 6 district games, plus a couple that are expected to be played no mater what, that only leaves one or two opening.  If your in a county that restricts travel, then you are forced to play the school down the road.

I am sure Georgia has had similar barriers, and somehow they are managing to work around some.  I think it would be wise for FL to look at other states to see if/how they have been able to do so.  

I am a big believer in fiscal responsibility, but when I see some of the spending taking place in education today, it just strikes me as odd that we would not allow a team to travel 50 miles for a game once or twice a year.  That is chump change.

Let's use 7A Milton in Fulton County GA as an example.  They play in a region with 5 other teams, each of whom they play during the regular season.  For their non-region games they scheduled Cardinal Gibbons(FL), 7A Archer from Gwinnett County, 6A Alpharetta from Fulton County, 7A Roswell from Fulton County, and 7A Parkview from Gwinnett County.  All 5 of those are good/very good teams.  

It's a big deal in south FL to have one cross-county game like Central vs STA.  Some of these schools in Atlanta are playing multiple cross-county opponents, plus tough non-region foes in their own county.  Buford played Deerfield Beach, plus non-region teams from 3 different metro area counties.  My perception is that folks there do not let county lines get in the way of scheduling as much as in Florida.

 

  

[DisabledAccount]

46 minutes ago, Hwy17 said:

Does Georgia allow more flexibility with their scheduling? Do they play in state mandated districts, where district games must be played on certain dates?  Some county school boards in Florida, like Hillsborough & Polk, don't let their public schools travel out of county or more than 50 miles done so for budget reasons. Lakeland I guess is an exception but they got a big booster club a lot of schools just don't have.  I've talked with a former AD at our school about this once.  He told me how hard it is sometimes to fill out a schedule and was reluctant to sign a one-year contract knowing he'd have trouble finding a game to fill that spot the next year.  Plus there are some "rival" type games that you just have to have because its expected to have.  So when you have 5 or 6 district games, plus a couple that are expected to be played no mater what, that only leaves one or two opening.  If your in a county that restricts travel, then you are forced to play the school down the road.

GA has more money to work with because for most part FL struggles to get good attendence which hurts a lot of schools financially 

 

Remember in most cases football has to financially carry the remaining sports who take losses every year 

 

So if more people showed up at games then more money would be there for all sports,  that's why it's usually 2 types of teams that can do those big games/have success

 

Ones with money and ones with good support system

[OldSchoolLion]

...irony.  Dematha of Maryland has more experience playing the tough south Florida teams than many FL schools.  They have taken on AHP, STA and Central in recent years.

Trinity Christian, Columbia, Wekiva, Vero Beach, Tampa Bay Tech, Godby....all in our site's Top 15...and all have little to no experience in the past 20 years playing better south FL teams.  With all of the emphasis on polls today, I think huge assumptions are made about these schools being able to successfully compete with south Florida's best.  That is not meant as a knock on their fine programs, either.    

Some question how certain OOS teams would do against our best.  That's a fair point..."not going to believe it until I see it."  Well for the same reason I question teams like the above being ranked above a Northwestern, Southridge or Columbus.  Just as back in the 1980's I would have given the edge to north FL teams over south FL teams...it's the opposite today.  

[DarterBlue2]

1 hour ago, OldSchoolLion said:

Trinity Christian, Columbia, Wekiva, Vero Beach, Tampa Bay Tech, Godby....all in our site's Top 15...and all have little to no experience in the past 20 years playing better south FL teams.  With all of the emphasis on polls today, I think huge assumptions are made about these schools being able to successfully compete with south Florida's best.  That is not meant as a knock on their fine programs, either.

This is only the third season Wekiva has had a sold team. Given the staff they have there, if they remain good, and there is some indication they will, I would expect them to schedule tough out of area games going forward. The district only has four teams with them, Apopka, West Orange and Evans. So they certainly have some flexibility in their schedule. 

[OldSchoolLion]

There are just a few undefeated teams left in the upper classifications in the Atlanta metro area.  Why?  They have been have beating each other up as well as scheduling out-of-area opponents in their non-region games.  ...some more examples below.

North Gwinnett(of Gwinnett County in northeast Atlanta), the team that Wekiva beat, took a second loss to a tough Walton team of Cobb County in northwest Atlanta.

Mill Creek, a solid 7A team from Gwinnett County, lost to crosstown Walton of Cobb County earlier in the season.

Buford scheduled Archer and paid the price this past weekend, getting thrashed 48-24.  These two Atlanta powers do not typically play each other, so they made this game happen.

McEachern of Atlanta scheduled Colquitt County of southern GA and took the loss earlier in the season.

3A power Cedar Grove of Dekalb County took on crosstown perennial power 7A McEachern of Cobb County and lost.  I have heard some teams in Florida do not want to schedule teams from lower classes.

 

If some of Florida's current undefeated teams were playing schedules like these, there is a good chance they would not be undefeated.  I don't mean to imply they are intentionally dodging good competition.  For whatever reason, we seem to be lacking in the "titan matchup" department in Florida

 

[DisabledAccount]

I believe someone stated this earlier in off-season (might have been me but not 100% sure) 

 

It's easy for a team in miami to logistically travel 20 miles and run into probably 10-20 teams in the states top 40

 

It isn't that easy in north Florida Where you may have 2-3 teams of top 40 quality in most years within 2 hours separation 

 

Teams that may fit that criteria (I'll do a loose criteria since I've seen Rankings that vary on these teams) 

 

Columbia 

Trinity Christian 

Godby

Vanguard

Lee

Madison County 

Flagler Palm Coast 

Deland

 

 

 

You got schools in Tallahassee, Jacksonville, Daytona metro,  Ocala 

 

That's a decent travel if you look at it,  not everyone can play every single team on that list for whatever reason and you may be lucky to get just 2 or 3 of those games on the schedule 

 

 

None of these are bordering counties of each other like you see with Gwinnett and Cobb or Miami Dade and Broward/palm Beach 

 

It's not smart or even in some cases logistically feasible for a team like Godby or Columbia or Vanguard to play a team 7 hours away in South Florida every week

 

Back in 70s, 80s, 90s you could see several top 25 teams in close proximity in North Florida when they were much stronger and you built up history with these schools playing each other and most still play to this day,  problem is not all those same schools have maintained that same quality 

 

 

Do some schools take easy schedules, yeah 

 

But just because a school can't set up a game several hours away every single year don't mean they are dodging competition 

 

[OldSchoolLion]

As mentioned above, Milton in GA has 3 non-region games against other 7A schools like itself.  In a manner of speaking, from a scheduling perspective, 7A there(the biggest class) has an "identity."  

Southridge vs Rockledge was an interesting matchup.  And not that a 5A vs 8A matchup cannot be very competitive...but to establish an identity, I think an 8A vs 8A matchup would be better.  There are so many intriguing 8A Southridge vs _______ matchups I can think of.  And am not implying an 8A school should be bound to scheduling only 8A teams, but seems it should be a priority to schedule such teams.

None of Deerfield Beach's 5 non-district games are against 8A FL schools.  DB is in a relatively weak district, so it's possible that by regular season's end, they may not have played one strong 8A FL team.  That just seems odd to me.  I can understand a north FL school having challenges scheduling schools in the same class.  I can think of so many intriguing 8A vs 8A matchups DB could play....right down the road  Instead they are playing 2 GA teams and 3A Chaminade.  Would have liked to have seen at least one of those games replaced by an 8A clash.   

Am saying all of this from a fan perspective.  It seems like the value of having classes is becoming less and less, especially if teams are simply scheduling "whoever."

  

 

         

[gatorman-uf]

On 9/23/2018 at 3:32 PM, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Remember in most cases football has to financially carry the remaining sports who take losses every year 

So if more people showed up at games then more money would be there for all sports,  that's why it's usually 2 types of teams that can do those big games/have success

I have coached a non-profit sports, football didn't give us one damn cent. The only thing that maybe football paid for was travel, but that came from the county for all sports and we were limited on how much we could spend. If we had a tournament and vans were cheaper overall, we still had to use buses because the vans came out of our sport account.

Not one official, security, ticket taker, or clock operator was ever paid for by the football team. It is one of the reasons why non-football sports are constantly doing fundraisers, where the football occasionally does one. 

---------------

As for scheduling of football games, this is why I said that the new scheduling wouldn't produce the benefits that they suggested of marquee match-ups every week. Marquee match-ups (in state or out of state) have to have the money to make them feasible. If you are going to Atlanta from Miami, you are probably renting 2 charter buses, 15-25 hotel rooms for 1 maybe 2 nights, feeding them at least 2-3 meals.

Charter buses are about $3,000 a piece, so $6,000 for 2 and for 2 days, probably double $10,000. 
15 Hotel Rooms, are going to be about $75-100 a piece (if you can get a group rate and don't end up in a slum) so $1,125 or $2,500 for 2 nights.
Meals = Dinner, breakfast, lunch, dinner on the way up, breakfast, lunch, dinner on the way back. If we are doing feeding everyone for $6 a meal that is 7 meals times 60 players so another $2500.

So we are at $15,000 for a trip from Miami to Atlanta for 2 nights on a charter bus there and back.  If you are talking about $7 a ticket than it is the first 2100 people who enter your home game to cover the costs. Forgetting of course, you still need to pay for security, ticket takers, officials, etc. So basically unless you have a strong support network, alumni, corporations, that is a large amount of money to take for a trip to Atlanta.

I would prefer to see NFL owners here in Florida get together and agree to sponsor high school at their pro stadiums during the first few weeks (similar to the Korky Bell Classic). 

[DisabledAccount]

12 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

I have coached a non-profit sports, football didn't give us one damn cent. The only thing that maybe football paid for was travel, but that came from the county for all sports and we were limited on how much we could spend. If we had a tournament and vans were cheaper overall, we still had to use buses because the vans came out of our sport account.

Not one official, security, ticket taker, or clock operator was ever paid for by the football team. It is one of the reasons why non-football sports are constantly doing fundraisers, where the football occasionally does one. 

---------------

As for scheduling of football games, this is why I said that the new scheduling wouldn't produce the benefits that they suggested of marquee match-ups every week. Marquee match-ups (in state or out of state) have to have the money to make them feasible. If you are going to Atlanta from Miami, you are probably renting 2 charter buses, 15-25 hotel rooms for 1 maybe 2 nights, feeding them at least 2-3 meals.

Charter buses are about $3,000 a piece, so $6,000 for 2 and for 2 days, probably double $10,000. 
15 Hotel Rooms, are going to be about $75-100 a piece (if you can get a group rate and don't end up in a slum) so $1,125 or $2,500 for 2 nights.
Meals = Dinner, breakfast, lunch, dinner on the way up, breakfast, lunch, dinner on the way back. If we are doing feeding everyone for $6 a meal that is 7 meals times 60 players so another $2500.

So we are at $15,000 for a trip from Miami to Atlanta for 2 nights on a charter bus there and back.  If you are talking about $7 a ticket than it is the first 2100 people who enter your home game to cover the costs. Forgetting of course, you still need to pay for security, ticket takers, officials, etc. So basically unless you have a strong support network, alumni, corporations, that is a large amount of money to take for a trip to Atlanta.

I would prefer to see NFL owners here in Florida get together and agree to sponsor high school at their pro stadiums during the first few weeks (similar to the Korky Bell Classic). 

At Columbia the money from ticket sales goes to the schools athletic department for basic needs throughout the athletic calendar 

 

Also i love the idea about a Florida classic,  i posted in a earlier thread just a few potential ideas that could organize a event with teams playing 

 

Duval vs Dade 

 

FL vs GA border wars

 

North FL vs South FL 

 

Any could be good ideas if organized properly 

[gatorman-uf]

5 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

At Columbia the money from ticket sales goes to the schools athletic department for basic needs throughout the athletic calendar 

Other than travel, uniforms, balls, refs, security, and ticket takers what exactly would the general needs be?
Trainers are paid for by the school district not the football team. 
Coaches salaries are paid for by the county
I think sometimes people confuse college and high school. Every non-football high school coach, I talk to tells me they get nothing from their athletic department or football program. If they want a cooler, they use their own funds. They want new uniforms, own funds. They want a simple banquet, own funds. They want new balls to practice with, own funds. Even sports like cross country, swimming, and track raise their own funds for registration, uniforms, and travel.

[DisabledAccount]

29 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

Other than travel, uniforms, balls, refs, security, and ticket takers what exactly would the general needs be?
Trainers are paid for by the school district not the football team. 
Coaches salaries are paid for by the county
I think sometimes people confuse college and high school. Every non-football high school coach, I talk to tells me they get nothing from their athletic department or football program. If they want a cooler, they use their own funds. They want new uniforms, own funds. They want a simple banquet, own funds. They want new balls to practice with, own funds. Even sports like cross country, swimming, and track raise their own funds for registration, uniforms, and travel.

You just answered your own question 

 

Specifically the first one