Lakeland Transfers - The Real Numbers

[skyway]

21 hours ago, OldSchoolLion said:

Last season, I did this exercise for a number of schools.  Lakeland, Armwood, and Chaminade-Madonna had quite a few transfers(though nothing quite like what happened at Lakeland this year).  St Thomas Aquinas, Cardinal Gibbons and University School demonstrated they are building much of their talent from within(many kids had come up through their JV teams) and had what some might consider a surprisingly low number of transfers who saw playing time.  For instance, I watched some game film of CG's state championship team last year, and of 26 players I watched, only two had transferred in for last season.

So, it is not fair to put everyone in the same bucket.  It's only fair to look at each team on a case-by-case basis instead of assuming that "everyone is doing it."   And not every transfer is the same.  For me, there's a difference between a kid who transfers in his sophomore season, has to work his way into a starting position, and gives a school 3 good years versus a senior who comes into a school to fill an obvious void in a critical position and becomes an instant starter.  

 

My point was that gaining transfers and building super teams is something most everyone wants to do now. It just so happens Lakeland may have had the best run at doing this in 2019; hence the larger numbers.  Have you compiled lists of transfers for schools like Central, Carol City, Northwestern and BTW? There's video clips of Antonio Callaway and Maurice Alexander-of BTW state championship fame-playing together at a school not named BTW just a year or two prior., for example. I'd like to review the state title teams from out of Dade over the last 5-6 years and see what those transfer lists look like.

[OldSchoolLion]

What lesson is a coach teaching a kid when he lets a kid walk onto a team right into a starting role ahead of kids already in the program for years?  The world just doesn't work that way.  In the "real" world, one normally has to earn his stripes when joining a new organization.  How many of us have had to "start over" this way?  A coach may not have control over who walks through the doors, but he does control playing time. 

I think the current climate creates unrealistic expectations and can possibly lead to some poor decisions later on.  Listen to Nick Saban at the 13-minute mark. 

And what lesson does the kid learn who gets supplanted after investing 3 years to earn a starting spot?  Where does a young person learn that loyalty is a virtue and often does pay off?  They certainly don't learn it in college football.  And now maybe not even hs football.  

 

 

[OldSchoolLion]

4 hours ago, skyway said:

My point was that gaining transfers and building super teams is something most everyone wants to do now. It just so happens Lakeland may have had the best run at doing this in 2019; hence the larger numbers.  Have you compiled lists of transfers for schools like Central, Carol City, Northwestern and BTW? There's video clips of Antonio Callaway and Maurice Alexander-of BTW state championship fame-playing together at a school not named BTW just a year or two prior., for example. I'd like to review the state title teams from out of Dade over the last 5-6 years and see what those transfer lists look like.

I did a post last year for Northwestern, looking at 2017 and 2018 seasons.  The short of it is that Northwestern appeared to be building a substantial amount of talent within and not going overboard relying upon transfers.  I even asked one of our resident S FL experts how he thought the 2017 team would have done without their 2017 transfers.

I am not sure what you mean by "everyone" above, but of the 100's of hs football teams in FL, I think there is actually quite a small percentage that are actually going out of their way to build superteams.  I think there are actually a lot more teams being "affected" by the phenomenon, ie losing their better players, than trying to do it.  Would like to think there are still plenty of coaches out their whose main vocation is teaching young men, regardless of how many trophies they win.

 

[HornetFan]

The only way to correct the transfer problem is for schools to refuse to play teams that accept transfers unless such transfers families have actually relocated to that school district. The nonsense of a student-athlete residing in another students home is absolute BS and should not be allowed. I see comments here trying to justify "cheating" schools out of their better players so unethical coaches can build their resumes and keep their local fans happy. If you recruit them as 9th, 10th, or 11th grade students, it's no better than recruiting them as seniors. Lakeland, with this army of transfers should be declared ineligible for state playoffs. Let them play the IMG's of the world.

[Perspective]

32 minutes ago, HornetFan said:

The only way to correct the transfer problem is for schools to refuse to play teams that accept transfers unless such transfers families have actually relocated to that school district. The nonsense of a student-athlete residing in another students home is absolute BS and should not be allowed. I see comments here trying to justify "cheating" schools out of their better players so unethical coaches can build their resumes and keep their local fans happy. If you recruit them as 9th, 10th, or 11th grade students, it's no better than recruiting them as seniors. Lakeland, with this army of transfers should be declared ineligible for state playoffs. Let them play the IMG's of the world.

While I understand both your frustration and your point, I don't see how your proposed solution could be applied in the real world.   For example, some school districts (like Hillsborough) handle the scheduling.  Also, how could you avoid playing a team in your district?  Refuse to play them just because they're not saying no to transfers?  Another point: most schedules are made up well before the end of recruiting season, er, transfer season, er, before the end of the summer.  Last, how the heck is a coach of Team A supposed to know if a transfer from Team B to Team C moved into Team C's district or not? 

Again, I understand your angst and applaud you for trying to come up with a solution.   I just don't see this one as working. 

[HornetFan]

5 minutes ago, Perspective said:

While I understand both your frustration and your point, I don't see how your proposed solution could be applied in the real world.   For example, some school districts (like Hillsborough) handle the scheduling.  Also, how could you avoid playing a team in your district?  Refuse to play them just because they're not saying no to transfers?  Another point: most schedules are made up well before the end of recruiting season, er, transfer season, er, before the end of the summer.  Last, how the heck is a coach of Team A supposed to know if a transfer from Team B to Team C moved into Team C's district or not? 

Again, I understand your angst and applaud you for trying to come up with a solution.   I just don't see this one as working. 

I realize the state legislature has the FHSAA is a unwinnable problem area. One would hope that HS coaches would be ethical enough to police all transfer situations and self-identify transfers that are not a result of a family move. There is a Sunshine conference in this state that doesn't follow FHSAA guidelines and as such are not eligible for state playoffs. Here in Orlando, we have several teams that play in that conference. One for instance is the Masters Academy. They're a small school in Oviedo that has an all-star recruited team. I watched a scrimmage between them and Winter Park (7 on 7 type) and Masters played them even. In their 1st game of regular season last week, starters were pulled at end of 1st quarter leading something like 48-0. Is this what we want HS football to look like? Participation is dropping in football because parents fear injury to their kids. These all-star teams are going to result in more kids being outclassed and injured.

[Proseteye]

1 hour ago, HornetFan said:

I realize the state legislature has the FHSAA is a unwinnable problem area. One would hope that HS coaches would be ethical enough to police all transfer situations and self-identify transfers that are not a result of a family move. There is a Sunshine conference in this state that doesn't follow FHSAA guidelines and as such are not eligible for state playoffs. Here in Orlando, we have several teams that play in that conference. One for instance is the Masters Academy. They're a small school in Oviedo that has an all-star recruited team. I watched a scrimmage between them and Winter Park (7 on 7 type) and Masters played them even. In their 1st game of regular season last week, starters were pulled at end of 1st quarter leading something like 48-0. Is this what we want HS football to look like? Participation is dropping in football because parents fear injury to their kids. These all-star teams are going to result in more kids being outclassed and injured.

Not only a busload of transfers but you would need the scales at a truck weighing station to assess some of these linemen. We can hope all we want that coaches even desire to police incoming transfers. Most of them just want to win and pretty much win at any cost. In a way I can't really blame them as the administrations, fans, alumni, and sponsors demand winning. Then when a parent's son becomes a regular fixture on the bench and/or their son, when he does play, gets hit full force by one of those 300 lb Kenworth's, they then start to realize., hey this is not the high school football team that I used to play on. Unless the Florida state legislature makes an amendment to the Transfer Bill that nobody is able to transfer and play sports in the same year they transfer, then this recruiting and transferring is just going to be more of a problem. As a result of this Bill, it forces the teams that have never done recruiting and don't encourage transfers for sporting reasons only, to begin doing this if the school's teams (all sports) are to be even minimally competitive.

[gwdrum75]

3 hours ago, Proseteye said:

Then when a parent's son becomes a regular fixture on the bench and/or their son, when he does play, gets hit full force by one of those 300 lb Kenworth's, they then start to realize., hey this is not the high school football team that I used to play on.

That 300 lb player will still be playing for A team. Whether he's playing for team A (stacked with talent), or team B (Not stacked), I don't think that increases or decreases his chances of injuring someone. Kids have gotten bigger over the years. Look at college football. 60 years ago, the college football teams of today would severely out-weigh even the heaviest of NFL teams.

I'm not necessarily a fan of the 'Stacked" super teams. But, I had it explained to me this way by a player:
He was on Team A. That team is historically not good and doesn't put much effort in their football program. He sees team B where he has a chance to play against tougher competition that will get him ready for the competition in college and give him more exposure playing against tough competition. Plus, has a coaching staff that actively pushes their kids out to colleges. Which would you choose?

I would love for county teams to play against each other year in and year out with close games. That is what I grew up on. But, with the introduction of the Private School model in the late 80's/early 90's, it changed everything. If you want public schools to only have kids in their designated school zone, you may have parity during the season, but those teams will get manhandled come playoff time.

The FHSAA would need to either: 1. Put all 'Private' schools (schools with no official boundaries) in their own class, or 2. Set up 'official' boundaries for private schools.

[HornetFan]

11 minutes ago, gwdrum75 said:

That 300 lb player will still be playing for A team. Whether he's playing for team A (stacked with talent), or team B (Not stacked), I don't think that increases or decreases his chances of injuring someone. Kids have gotten bigger over the years. Look at college football. 60 years ago, the college football teams of today would severely out-weigh even the heaviest of NFL teams.

I'm not necessarily a fan of the 'Stacked" super teams. But, I had it explained to me this way by a player:
He was on Team A. That team is historically not good and doesn't put much effort in their football program. He sees team B where he has a chance to play against tougher competition that will get him ready for the competition in college and give him more exposure playing against tough competition. Plus, has a coaching staff that actively pushes their kids out to colleges. Which would you choose?

I would love for county teams to play against each other year in and year out with close games. That is what I grew up on. But, with the introduction of the Private School model in the late 80's/early 90's, it changed everything. If you want public schools to only have kids in their designated school zone, you may have parity during the season, but those teams will get manhandled come playoff time.

The FHSAA would need to either: 1. Put all 'Private' schools (schools with no official boundaries) in their own class, or 2. Set up 'official' boundaries for private schools.

Lakeland is a public school and they're out of control on the transfers. Also the 300# kid playing for his local high school may crush an opposing player on a "traditional " high school team. Playing schools like Lakelenad, the kid will get crushed by five of these behemoths and chances of serious injury will be increased exponentially. 

[OldSchoolLion]

37 minutes ago, gwdrum75 said:

That 300 lb player will still be playing for A team. Whether he's playing for team A (stacked with talent), or team B (Not stacked), I don't think that increases or decreases his chances of injuring someone. Kids have gotten bigger over the years. Look at college football. 60 years ago, the college football teams of today would severely out-weigh even the heaviest of NFL teams.

I'm not necessarily a fan of the 'Stacked" super teams. But, I had it explained to me this way by a player:
He was on Team A. That team is historically not good and doesn't put much effort in their football program. He sees team B where he has a chance to play against tougher competition that will get him ready for the competition in college and give him more exposure playing against tough competition. Plus, has a coaching staff that actively pushes their kids out to colleges. Which would you choose?

I would love for county teams to play against each other year in and year out with close games. That is what I grew up on. But, with the introduction of the Private School model in the late 80's/early 90's, it changed everything. If you want public schools to only have kids in their designated school zone, you may have parity during the season, but those teams will get manhandled come playoff time.

The FHSAA would need to either: 1. Put all 'Private' schools (schools with no official boundaries) in their own class, or 2. Set up 'official' boundaries for private schools.

Public schools have done just fine against private schools, winning about 50% of the games(38 wins vs 40 losses) they have played against private schools in state finals.  Public schools actually had the edge until this decade.  As you'll see below, most of the well-known private school programs have been victims of at least one whoopin' of 21 points or more by a public school program in a state final or other playoff game.  Prior to 2000, St Thomas and Bolles were the only private schools having routine success in the large classes.   The vast majority of private schools have had moderate success in the playoffs over their histories, ie Cardinal Gibbons.  Current powerhouses like Chaminade were doormats in the 80's and 90's.  IMO, a relative few powerhouse private school programs that get LOTS of attention have blown the whole public/private thing out of proportion.  And had those schools not benefited from some rather favorable playoff paths over the years, their success might not have been nearly as great.

All of the games below were state finals unless noted

*playoff game (not a state final)

1971 Class A Hastings 34 Trinity Prep/Orlando 7

1974 Class 3A Ocala Forest 46 Chaminade 6

1977 Class A FAMU 59 Trinity Prep/Orlando 7

1978 Class A FAMU 45 WPB Benjamin 6

1980 Class 4A Tate 35 Miami Columbus 7

1984 Class A Baker 48 Glades Day 7

1985 Class A Baker 33 Glades Day 0

1990 Class 3A Suwanee 44 Cardinal Gibbons 14

1991 Class 4A Fort Walton Beach 39 St Thomas Aquinas 14

1994 Class 3A Union County 21 Bishop Verot 0

1996 Class 4A Lakeland 40 St Thomas Aquinas 6

*1999 Class A Trenton 45 University Christian 18

2004 Class 5A Lakeland 31 St Thomas Aquinas 7

2004 Class 2B Pahokee 43 Pensacola Catholic 9

2005 Class 5A Lakeland 39 St Thomas Aquinas 10

*2006 Class 2B Pahokee 48 Cardinal Mooney 0 

2007 Class 2A Madison County 28 Tampa Catholic 7

*2007 Class 2B Frostproof 32 Clearwater Central Catholic 10

2009 Class 3A Pensacola 28 Miami Belen Jesuit 7

*2011 Class 5A Pasco 31 Tampa Jesuit 7

2012 Class 4A Booker T Washington 35 Bolles 7

 

[gwdrum75]

2 hours ago, OldSchoolLion said:

Public schools have done just fine against private schools, winning about 50% of the games(38 wins vs 40 losses) they have played against private schools in state finals.  Public schools actually had the edge until this decade.  As you'll see below, most of the well-known private school programs have been victims of at least one whoopin' of 21 points or more by a public school program in a state final or other playoff game.  Prior to 2000, St Thomas and Bolles were the only private schools having routine success in the large classes.   The vast majority of private schools have had moderate success in the playoffs over their histories, ie Cardinal Gibbons.  Current powerhouses like Chaminade were doormats in the 80's and 90's.  IMO, a relative few powerhouse private school programs that get LOTS of attention have blown the whole public/private thing out of proportion.  And had those schools not benefited from some rather favorable playoff paths over the years, their success might not have been nearly as great.

All of the games below were state finals unless noted

*playoff game (not a state final)

1971 Class A Hastings 34 Trinity Prep/Orlando 7

1974 Class 3A Ocala Forest 46 Chaminade 6

1977 Class A FAMU 59 Trinity Prep/Orlando 7

1978 Class A FAMU 45 WPB Benjamin 6

1980 Class 4A Tate 35 Miami Columbus 7

1984 Class A Baker 48 Glades Day 7

1985 Class A Baker 33 Glades Day 0

1990 Class 3A Suwanee 44 Cardinal Gibbons 14

1991 Class 4A Fort Walton Beach 39 St Thomas Aquinas 14

1994 Class 3A Union County 21 Bishop Verot 0

1996 Class 4A Lakeland 40 St Thomas Aquinas 6

*1999 Class A Trenton 45 University Christian 18

2004 Class 5A Lakeland 31 St Thomas Aquinas 7

2004 Class 2B Pahokee 43 Pensacola Catholic 9

2005 Class 5A Lakeland 39 St Thomas Aquinas 10

*2006 Class 2B Pahokee 48 Cardinal Mooney 0 

2007 Class 2A Madison County 28 Tampa Catholic 7

*2007 Class 2B Frostproof 32 Clearwater Central Catholic 10

2009 Class 3A Pensacola 28 Miami Belen Jesuit 7

*2011 Class 5A Pasco 31 Tampa Jesuit 7

2012 Class 4A Booker T Washington 35 Bolles 7

 

Please list all the games where a private has won over a public.

[OldSchoolLion]

8 minutes ago, gwdrum75 said:

Please list all the games where a private has won over a public.

 

[Legion37]

Well Lakeland leads American Colligate  49-0 at half time. I'm not sure why this game was scheduled or who wanted this. American has a total of 30 players.

But there it is...

[gwdrum75]

1 minute ago, Legion37 said:

Well Lakeland leads American Colligate  49-0 at half time. I'm not sure why this game was scheduled or who wanted this. American has a total of 30 players.

But there it is...

This was a terrible choice to schedule this game. I know alot of teams didnt want to play Lakeland, but......

 Their RB is good....but they have a Pop Warner OL.