Are Miami Dade's Public School Programs Struggling?

[OldSchoolLion]

6 minutes ago, BrowardHandicapper said:

Public school, not sure I can find one that consistent but if you are from SFL you should know that Southwest plays in arguably the worst 8A District in the state. Belen Jesuit is the only team with a pulse in that 8-15 district.  Unless you feel beating Ferguson, Braddock, Coral Reef and Varela  are not consistent, easy Ws....  I can't argue with those numbers but tell me how their season ends every year with that "winning" record?

How is Southwest record versus other 8A Publics or any publics for that matter outside their District? 

What is Southwest postseason record in that super 39-15, 2012- 2016 run?

 

Bingo.  If we are struggling to fill out a "Top 5 8A schools for Dade," it raises questions about the depth/consistency of the programs in the county, since many Dade schools are 8A. 

We sometimes pick on Palm Beach and Broward for their lack of powerhouse public programs, but are Dade County's public programs as a whole really that far superior?    That's the dialogue I am trying to foster.

[OldSchoolLion]

30 minutes ago, BrowardHandicapper said:

Are there more 8A schools in Miami Dade or Seminole, Osceola, and Orange County?

There are 22(20 public) in Dade and 23(combined) in Seminole/Osceola/Orange.  Broward has 13.  So I think a Dade vs Seminole/Osceola/Orange comparison is reasonable.

[OldSchoolLion]

1 hour ago, DarterBlue2 said:

Probably more in the Orlando area. But that is mostly due to the fact that all the public schools except for: Jones, Lake Nona and Edgewater in Orange, and Lake Howell and Hagerty in Seminole are in 8A. Now Osceola does have more non 8A public schools than 8A. But it is the smallest of the three counties population wise. 

In Miami/Dade, a fairly large number of the public schools are in lower classifications. 

This will surprise you...breakdown of Dade public school by classification

20 in 8A

9 in 7A (Doral, Goleman, Mater, Mourning, Reagan, S Miami, Springs, Sunset, Westland)-same region as Dwyer & STA

5 in 6A (Carol City, Central, Northwestern, Norland and Hialeah Miami-Lakes)

1 in 5A (Jackson)-same district as AH Plantation & Cardinal Gibbons

2 in 4A (BTW and Edison)

0 in 1A-3A

[BrowardHandicapper]

19 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

Bingo.  If we are struggling to fill out a "Top 5 8A schools for Dade," it raises questions about the depth/consistency of the programs in the county, since many Dade schools are 8A. 

We sometimes pick on Palm Beach and Broward for their lack of powerhouse public programs, but are Dade County's public programs as a whole really that far superior?    That's the dialogue I am trying to foster.

So 8A privates like Columbus do not count?

Are you aware just a few years back that Belen Jesuit was a very solid program.

Take Southwest out of their district from 2012 to current and they will be lucky to crack .500 every year.  Don't get fooled by the numbers.

 

As for Broward .  I would argue Broward publics in 2015 were as good or better then any county in the state. Yeah, a whole 2 1/2 year ago....

Dade publics are consistenly superior because of 16-6A.  8A goes in cycles in Dade, Broward and PB. 

[OldSchoolLion]

11 minutes ago, BrowardHandicapper said:

So 8A privates like Columbus do not count?

Are you aware just a few years back that Belen Jesuit was a very solid program.

Take Southwest out of their district from 2012 to current and they will be lucky to crack .500 every year.  Don't get fooled by the numbers.

Pl

As for Broward .  I would argue Broward publics in 2015 were as good or better then any county in the state. Yeah, a whole 2 1/2 year ago....

Dade publics are consistenly superior because of 16-6A.  8A goes in cycles in Dade, Broward and PB. 

The post is about Dade public schools.  Not much question Dade has had some good private school programs.

No debate about Southwest.  With all of the talent in Dade, I find it intriguing that there are not more consistent powerhouse programs outside 6A.   

 

[DarterBlue2]

36 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

This will surprise you...breakdown of Dade public school by classification

20 in 8A

9 in 7A (Doral, Goleman, Mater, Mourning, Reagan, S Miami, Springs, Sunset, Westland)-same region as Dwyer & STA

5 in 6A (Carol City, Central, Northwestern, Norland and Hialeah Miami-Lakes)

1 in 5A (Jackson)-same district as AH Plantation & Cardinal Gibbons

0 in 1A-4A

I think Booker T is in 4A. But other than that, your groupings seem stop on. 

[OldSchoolLion]

 

3 minutes ago, DarterBlue2 said:

I think Booker T is in 4A. But other than that, your groupings seem stop on. 

and Edison, too.  Will fix above

[DarterBlue2]

5 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

 

and Edison, too.  Will fix above

How could I forget the Red Raiders? Edison has actually had some good soccer teams recently. If a knowledgeable staff took over, they could compete for a state title with the Haitian and Hispanic kids they have there. 

[BrowardHandicapper]

Considering there are 20 total 8A programs in Dade, one might expect some new blood in what I call 3-5 year power cycles.  The problem is you have probably 6-7 teams at the bottom of those 20 teams and they can’t even establish a once in a decade “flash in the pan” season. They are unfortunately consistently 1-4 win teams.   

The funny thing is think those losing programs may even sometumes keep their coaches longer term then the teams that usually have winning records.

Perhaps some schools take their football more serious....

 

 

[“PANTHER NATION(CODE BLUE)]

1 hour ago, DarterBlue2 said:

Sure, when I referenced 8A, I meant largest class. Once Central, Northwestern in particular, and you can add Norland and Carol City, no longer played in the largest class that presented an opening for the Orlando area. 

To be honest, though, Central Florida in recent times has a much better track record in Basketball, winning titles both in the larger classes (public schools) and smaller classes, private schools. It is only in the last then to fifteen years that the Orlando area has become consistently competitive in football. 

The fact that Carol city Norland and northwestern is in 6a is very odd to me but 3 of them was once in 8a 

[DarterBlue2]

3 minutes ago, "PANTHER NATiON" (WE HERE) said:

The fact that Carol city Norland and northwestern is in 6a is very odd to me but 3 of them was once in 8a 

I guess school enrollment in those areas must have dropped big time. The cutoff for the large class has not changed much over the years. 

[OldSchoolLion]

4 minutes ago, "PANTHER NATiON" (WE HERE) said:

The fact that Carol city Norland and northwestern is in 6a is very odd to me but 3 of them was once in 8a 

Sorry, sir, but none of them were ever 8A.

[“PANTHER NATION(CODE BLUE)]

11 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

Sorry, sir, but none of them were ever 8A.

I thought I read somewhere up top that 3 of them were but still all of those teams are in one district and class that’s crazy all of them should be in 7 or 8a now that would be interesting 

[OldSchoolLion]

16 minutes ago, BrowardHandicapper said:

Considering there are 20 total 8A programs in Dade, one might expect some new blood in what I call 3-5 year power cycles.  The problem is you have probably 6-7 teams at the bottom of those 20 teams and they can’t even establish a once in a decade “flash in the pan” season. They are unfortunately consistently 1-4 win teams.   

The funny thing is think those losing programs may even sometumes keep their coaches longer term then the teams that usually have winning records.

Perhaps some schools take their football more serious....

 

 

Generally speaking, the "strong" programs in Dade are at schools with large Black populations.  It is great that schools like Central, Northwestern, Norland and Booker T have such great success, but it comes at a cost...a deeply segregated county.

The article below explains...      

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/miami-school-segregation-is-arguably-the-worst-in-florida-9704823

[“PANTHER NATION(CODE BLUE)]

5 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

Generally speaking, the "strong" programs in Dade are at schools with large Black populations.  It is great that schools like Central, Northwestern, Norland and Booker T have such great success, but it comes at a cost...a deeply segregated county.

The article below explains...      

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/miami-school-segregation-is-arguably-the-worst-in-florida-9704823

But in Broward completely opposite 

[DisabledAccount]

24 minutes ago, "PANTHER NATiON" (WE HERE) said:

I thought I read somewhere up top that 3 of them were but still all of those teams are in one district and class that’s crazy all of them should be in 7 or 8a now that would be interesting 

They were in 6a when there was only 6 classes if that's what you are asking 

[Hwy17]

3 hours ago, OldSchoolLion said:

 

Columbus-Chris Merritt-17 seasons-1 final appearance

Monsignor Pace-Joe Zaccheo-15 seasons-1 state title

Booker T Washington/Miami-Tim Harris-10 seasons-3 state titles

Norland-Daryle Heidelburg-9 seasons-1 state title

South Dade-Nate Hudson Jr-6 seasons-1 title

Miami Central-Roland Smith-5 seasons

Palmetto/Miami-Mike Manasco-4 seasons

Northwestern-Max Edwards-3 seasons

Carol City-Benedict Hyppolite-1 season

Miami-Zach Gardner-0 seasons

Southridge-Sedrick Irvin-0 seasons

 

My observation, it takes a while to build a program and struggling programs usually have a revolving door or coaches.  

Didn't Zaccheo leave and come back?  Pace's slide came after he left.  

 

 

[OldSchoolLion]

25 minutes ago, "PANTHER NATiON" (WE HERE) said:

I thought I read somewhere up top that 3 of them were but still all of those teams are in one district and class that’s crazy all of them should be in 7 or 8a now that would be interesting 

STA might not have as many state titles if Central, NW or Carol City were in 7A

Carol City, Northwestern, Central, Norland and Southridge were all in 6A in the 2000's when STA was down in 4A and 5A.  In 2011, the Miami schools split and went to 8A or 6A and STA went to 7A.   

Seems odd, but STA has never played any of those schools in the playoffs in the past 50 years.  Between 1998-2010, in 13 trips to the playoffs, STA only played two playoff games versus a Dade County school.  They lost to Edison in 2003 and beat them by 2 points in 2004.  

  

[BrowardHandicapper]

2 minutes ago, DarterBlue2 said:

How could I forget the Red Raiders? Edison has actually had some good soccer teams recently. If a knowledgeable staff took over, they could compete for a state title with the Haitian and Hispanic kids they have there. 

Edison was horrible last year but watch how quick they reload and become a threat in 4A this year...

[OldSchoolLion]

 

1 minute ago, Hwy17 said:

My observation, it takes a while to build a program and struggling programs usually have a revolving door or coaches.  

Didn't Zaccheo leave and come back?  Pace's slide came after he left.  

 

 

Yes

[“PANTHER NATION(CODE BLUE)]

1 minute ago, OldSchoolLion said:

STA might not have as many state titles if Central, NW or Carol City were in 7A

Carol City, Northwestern, Central, Norland and Southridge were all in 6A in the 2000's when STA was down in 4A and 5A.  In 2011, the Miami schools split and went to 8A or 6A and STA went to 7A.   

Seems odd, but STA has never played any of those schools in the playoffs in the past 50 years.  Between 1998-2010, in 13 trips to the playoffs, STA only played two playoff games versus a Dade County school.  They lost to Edison in 2003 and beat them by 2 points in 2004.  

  

I believe the played American & mAter Academy a few times in the playoffs & also the same could b said for central MNW& etc put these teams in the highest classes and let’s see how they fair put central mnw cc in the same class as Wekiva dr Phillips west oragange apopka and see how the finals pan out 

[OldSchoolLion]

1 minute ago, "PANTHER NATiON" (WE HERE) said:

I believe the played American & mAter Academy a few times in the playoffs & also the same could b said for central MNW& etc put these teams in the highest classes and let’s see how they fair put central mnw cc in the same class as Wekiva dr Phillips west oragange apopka and see how the finals pan out 

Would be interesting, but then you would have virtually all of the good Dade public schools crammed into 8A and knocking themselves out in the playoffs.  

[Hwy17]

1 minute ago, OldSchoolLion said:

Would be interesting, but then you would have virtually all of the good Dade public schools crammed into 8A and knocking themselves out in the playoffs.  

If memory serves me right, late 90's or early 00's, there was only 6 classes, 6a the largest class and 6a region 3 & 4 was all Dade.

[OldSchoolLion]

16 minutes ago, Hwy17 said:

If memory serves me right, late 90's or early 00's, there was only 6 classes, 6a the largest class and 6a region 3 & 4 was all Dade.

Yep.  Broward schools were in the mix, too.  There were a number of Broward/Dade playoff games which were a lot of fun.  ie in 2001, Dillard played NM Beach, Carol City, Central and Northwestern in the playoffs.  

 

[“PANTHER NATION(CODE BLUE)]

3 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

Yep.  Broward schools were in the mix, too.  There were a number of Broward/Dade playoff games which were a lot of fun.  ie in 2001, Dillard played NM Beach, Carol City, Central and Northwestern in the playoffs.  

 

And beat them all to.