Jambun etc, assess this penalty call by the officials

[skyway 135]

The play in question is the first play in this highlight collection. It is replayed from a better, wider angle at 00:51 through the conclusion. Best I can tell, they call it on the WR #10. What are your thoughts?

http://www.hudl.com/v/2BjAPe

[Perspective 407]

Illegal block in the back against # 10.   A pretty weak call, but probably a technically accurate call.  Once the WR realized that he couldn't get to the front side of the safety, he should have let up.  Instead, he extended his arms into the DB's back.   As the play developed, you could see that the slight shove really had no impact on the play and, if anything, assisted the safety in being able to force Bowman out of bounds.   But, the official didn't have time to see what happened later and threw the flag on what he saw happening directly in front of him (i.e., the WR pushing the DB in the back). 

As a coach, I'd probably praise the WR for his effort, but then make it a teachable moment and chew on his a little for not being smart enough to pull up, avoid the contact and let his world-class running back get whatever yardage he could. 

Having said all that, there's also the conspiracy-theory side of me that thinks the WR was simply doing what he's always done at Lakeland home games and never been flagged for it before. 

[ColumbiaHighFan2017class 2,398]

1 hour ago, Perspective said:

Illegal block in the back against # 10.   A pretty weak call, but probably a technically accurate call.  Once the WR realized that he couldn't get to the front side of the safety, he should have let up.  Instead, he extended his arms into the DB's back.   As the play developed, you could see that the slight shove really had no impact on the play and, if anything, assisted the safety in being able to force Bowman out of bounds.   But, the official didn't have time to see what happened later and threw the flag on what he saw happening directly in front of him (i.e., the WR pushing the DB in the back). 

As a coach, I'd probably praise the WR for his effort, but then make it a teachable moment and chew on his a little for not being smart enough to pull up, avoid the contact and let his world-class running back get whatever yardage he could. 

Having said all that, there's also the conspiracy-theory side of me that thinks the WR was simply doing what he's always done at Lakeland home games and never been flagged for it before. 

Dun dun dun

[HornetFan 113]

10 hours ago, skyway said:

The play in question is the first play in this highlight collection. It is replayed from a better, wider angle at 00:51 through the conclusion. Best I can tell, they call it on the WR #10. What are your thoughts?

http://www.hudl.com/v/2BjAPe

A penalty is a penalty, even when it has no effect on the actual play. How often do we see penalties called on the opposite side of the field, away from the play? It's a teaching moment for the coach to avoid having it happen again, but kids are kids and it will happen again.

[badbird 1,458]

3 hours ago, Perspective said:

Said all that, there's also the conspiracy-theory side of me that thinks the WR was simply doing what he's always done at Lakeland home games and never been flagged for it before. 

He probably hasn't been at Lakeland long enough to realize that

[Jambun82 131]

10 hours ago, HornetFan said:

A penalty is a penalty, even when it has no effect on the actual play. How often do we see penalties called on the opposite side of the field, away from the play? It's a teaching moment for the coach to avoid having it happen again, but kids are kids and it will happen again.

HornetFan, that is not entirely accurate. Player Safety fouls are always penalties wherever that occur on the field of play, end zone, or sideline. However, many judgment call type of fouls such as holding, OPI, or DPI, are not usually called unless these fouls have a direct effect on the play. Most Head Coaches agree with this reasoning, and it behooves most Officials to try to limit fouls to the absolute necessary with the obvious exception of player safety fouls.  

[Jambun82 131]

22 hours ago, skyway said:

The play in question is the first play in this highlight collection. It is replayed from a better, wider angle at 00:51 through the conclusion. Best I can tell, they call it on the WR #10. What are your thoughts?

http://www.hudl.com/v/2BjAPe

Skyway, are you sure the foul was called on #10, and not the slot receiver?

[aknenn 23]

11 hours ago, HornetFan said:

A penalty is a penalty, even when it has no effect on the actual play. How often do we see penalties called on the opposite side of the field, away from the play? It's a teaching moment for the coach to avoid having it happen again, but kids are kids and it will happen again.

Im a first year official doing jv and freshman games. This is not true. They tell us during our trainings not to call things that are on opposite side of the field, unless its unsportsmanlike, a saftey issue, or the played has been warned multiple times. 

[Jambun82 131]

9 minutes ago, aknenn said:

Im a first year official doing jv and freshman games. This is not true. They tell us during our trainings not to call things that are on opposite side of the field, unless its unsportsmanlike, a saftey issue, or the played has been warned multiple times. 

Yes, aknenn, that is absolutely correct. I wish you all the best in your officiating career.

[skyway 135]

29 minutes ago, Jambun82 said:

Skyway, are you sure the foul was called on #10, and not the slot receiver?

I'm not sure. Are you seeing something there?

[aknenn 23]

7 minutes ago, Jambun82 said:

Yes, aknenn, that is absolutely correct. I wish you all the best in your officiating career.

appreciate it! loving it so far, just feels good to be back involved in the sport i love

[Jambun82 131]

12 minutes ago, skyway said:

I'm not sure. Are you seeing something there?

Not especially, and I don't like to criticize or critique game officials. However, from the limited point-of-view of the video, I noticed more contact from the slot receiver than #10.

[Jambun82 131]

11 minutes ago, aknenn said:

appreciate it! loving it so far, just feels good to be back involved in the sport i love

I believe that is what most officials would say why they officiate. To give back to the sport, and stay involved with football.

[Cat_Scratch 669]

5 minutes ago, Jambun82 said:

I believe that is what most officials would say why they officiate. To give back to the sport, and stay involved with football.

It's why I still umpire baseball at 60 +. Pay it forward.

[HornetFan 113]

15 hours ago, Jambun82 said:

HornetFan, that is not entirely accurate. Player Safety fouls are always penalties wherever that occur on the field of play, end zone, or sideline. However, many judgment call type of fouls such as holding, OPI, or DPI, are not usually called unless these fouls have a direct effect on the play. Most Head Coaches agree with this reasoning, and it behooves most Officials to try to limit fouls to the absolute necessary with the obvious exception of player safety fouls.  

Whether the call is made or not is always at the discretion of the officials; sometimes that decision smells of home town cooking. I have seen too many great plays called back for penalties that occur away from the ball; most of the time they are holding calls or blocks in the back. I agree player safety fouls should always be called. 

[HornetFan 113]

15 hours ago, aknenn said:

Im a first year official doing jv and freshman games. This is not true. They tell us during our trainings not to call things that are on opposite side of the field, unless its unsportsmanlike, a saftey issue, or the played has been warned multiple times. 

Where are you officiating? My youngest grandson plays on Winter Park's freshmen team. I like the philosophy they are teaching you. Good luck with officiating.

[Perspective 407]

42 minutes ago, HornetFan said:

Whether the call is made or not is always at the discretion of the officials; sometimes that decision smells of home town cooking. I have seen too many great plays called back for penalties that occur away from the ball; most of the time they are holding calls or blocks in the back. I agree player safety fouls should always be called. 

I'm guessing most officials are taught that blocks in the back are player safety fouls.   Not so much for a garden-variety holding call. 

[aknenn 23]

5 hours ago, HornetFan said:

Where are you officiating? My youngest grandson plays on Winter Park's freshmen team. I like the philosophy they are teaching you. Good luck with officiating.

thank you I appreciate it. I am in Palm Beach county

[Jambun82 131]

HornetFan, what authority

7 hours ago, HornetFan said:

Whether the call is made or not is always at the discretion of the officials; sometimes that decision smells of home town cooking. I have seen too many great plays called back for penalties that occur away from the ball; most of the time they are holding calls or blocks in the back. I agree player safety fouls should always be called. 

HornetFan, what authority do you have to declare that whether a call is made is not at the discretion of the officials? What do you think that the officials role is during a High School Football game? A block in the back is a Player Safety foul, no matter where it occurs. Of course, a block in the back is a block with clear initial hands or arms below the shoulders, and above the waist of an opponent. Many times what coaches and fans believe is a block in the back, is not in fact so unless this is clear to the official. Also, a block in the back could be considered a Personal Foul is the action is well away for the play on the field.

[ColumbiaHighFan2017class 2,398]

Normally the "home cooking" fouls are PI or holding calls because those are judgment calls

[badbird 1,458]

8 minutes ago, Jambun82 said:

HornetFan, what authority

HornetFan, what authority do you have to declare that whether a call is made is not at the discretion of the officials? What do you think that the officials role is during a High School Football game? A block in the back is a Player Safety foul, no matter where it occurs. Of course, a block in the back is a block with clear initial hands or arms below the shoulders, and above the waist of an opponent. Many times what coaches and fans believe is a block in the back, is not in fact so unless this is clear to the official. Also, a block in the back could be considered a Personal Foul is the action is well away for the play on the field.

So should we teach are players to block in the butt?  Would that be a penalty?

[Jambun82 131]

2 minutes ago, badbird said:

So should we teach are players to block in the butt?  Would that be a penalty?

A block in the butt would be a clipping foul. Not to be confused with butt-blocking which is blocking against a non-runner with the front of the helmet.

[HornetFan 113]

40 minutes ago, Jambun82 said:

HornetFan, what authority

HornetFan, what authority do you have to declare that whether a call is made is not at the discretion of the officials? What do you think that the officials role is during a High School Football game? A block in the back is a Player Safety foul, no matter where it occurs. Of course, a block in the back is a block with clear initial hands or arms below the shoulders, and above the waist of an opponent. Many times what coaches and fans believe is a block in the back, is not in fact so unless this is clear to the official. Also, a block in the back could be considered a Personal Foul is the action is well away for the play on the field.

As a long time football fan and season ticket holder to several pro and college football teams during my life, I have always believed that officials should establish early what will and will not be tolerated and then let the players play provided they don't get out of hand. A block in the back can be as little as a slight push or as bad as wiping a player out from behind; I don't believe a slight push should be called. It's like pass interference; too often officials determine who wins a game by not allowing any contact by CB's. It's football, not soccer.

[skyway 135]

On 9/17/2019 at 8:13 PM, Jambun82 said:

Not especially, and I don't like to criticize or critique game officials. However, from the limited point-of-view of the video, I noticed more contact from the slot receiver than #10.

If you watch the last clip, at 0:50, you get a much better view. The other WR is not in position to do anything. And, we can easily see when and where the official threw the flag. It was obviously on #10. And, it was obviously b.s. Although not nearly as b.s. as the roughing the punter call towards the end of the 1st half, or a couple of the roughing the passer calls. 

[badbird 1,458]

11 hours ago, skyway said:

If you watch the last clip, at 0:50, you get a much better view. The other WR is not in position to do anything. And, we can easily see when and where the official threw the flag. It was obviously on #10. And, it was obviously b.s. Although not nearly as b.s. as the roughing the punter call towards the end of the 1st half, or a couple of the roughing the passer calls. 

looks like a block in the back to me.  Pause it at 59 seconds and his hands are on his back.  

 

They could have also called a hold on the slot WR.  His hands are clearly outside and his left hand is on his back.