4S ready to see a shakeup?

[VeniceIndianFan]

Venice lost to Lakeland last season in a very fun championship game. This year, Venice is coming in with their best offensive line in school history, most experienced running back room ever, probably their best receiving corps, extremely solid QB in Jayden Glasser, and the hire of passing-game coordinator Denzel Nickerson. That's just the offense!

Defensively, all 3 of Venice's starting linebackers return. Two of our starting cornerbacks, Charles Fleming and Deylen Platt return, on top of the transfer of Charles Lester III. Malakai Corbett will play safety. The defensive line now looks like a strength for Venice. The transfer of Ryan Daly and the return of Elijah Jones, on top of the emergences of Ke'Shawn Reid and Asharri Charles means that our edge rushers will be seeing far more one-on-one's than last year. 

So, I ask, is Venice set to take the crown from Lakeland? Or will the Dreadnaughts prevail once again to claim the 4S championship?

[VeniceIndianFan]

Any thoughts?

[DarterBlue2]

I believe Venice's primary competition will be from a team other than Lakeland this year. 

At this stage I like Venice; but it's very early.

[Longtime Observer]

On 7/13/2023 at 12:37 PM, VeniceIndianFan said:

Venice lost to Lakeland last season in a very fun championship game. This year, Venice is coming in with their best offensive line in school history, most experienced running back room ever, probably their best receiving corps, extremely solid QB in Jayden Glasser, and the hire of passing-game coordinator Denzel Nickerson. That's just the offense!

Defensively, all 3 of Venice's starting linebackers return. Two of our starting cornerbacks, Charles Fleming and Deylen Platt return, on top of the transfer of Charles Lester III. Malakai Corbett will play safety. The defensive line now looks like a strength for Venice. The transfer of Ryan Daly and the return of Elijah Jones, on top of the emergences of Ke'Shawn Reid and Asharri Charles means that our edge rushers will be seeing far more one-on-one's than last year. 

So, I ask, is Venice set to take the crown from Lakeland? Or will the Dreadnaughts prevail once again to claim the 4S championship?

Of course it is impossible to know how the season will play out on August 1, without having seen any of the teams play. It does seem to be quite hard to imagine 4S being settled without a Lakeland-Venice match up at some point (with the weird, poor ratings system, there's no way to be sure how the seeding will play out, so the game may not be in the state title game).

Lakeland was considerably better than Venice from a talent perspective last year. They did manage a total offense advantage of 392-138, and took a knee at the 1 yard-line late when they could've scored easily. Everyone at Lakeland has said Osceola was easily the best team they played last year. BUT, Lakeland has been much more talented than Venice in each and every game the schools have ever played (lots of spring games in the last ten years). Since 2017, Venice has given Lakeland fits each time (excepting the 2022 spring game). Coaching, execution, scheme etc have all been a clear edge for Venice, making wins very hard to come by despite Lakeland's clear talent advantage. This year, Lakeland has a new coach and a new approach. Will coaching, execution and scheme remain clear Venice advantages??

Looking at returning starters from 2022, Venice has more starters back, with 7 (or 8 if you count both RBs who rarely play at the same time) back on offense and 5-6 back on defense. Lakeland has 4 back on O if counting both Rbs and, generously 3-4 back on D (the DL had a roatation with 2 who played often back). 

Before 2017, what I wrote above would point to favoring Venice to get the best of Lakeland. But, as we all know, the "transfer portal" has dramatically changed (ruined?) the game. Keeping an eye on hudl and Twitter, it appears that Lakeland has received considerably more transfers than Venice. But, Venice has done significantly more to celebrate and outright market its success in the transfer portal, and they do have the highest rated transfer in the state. So, I think the perception is that Venice did better, even though I don't see evidence for that claim.

I think perhaps the only thing we can be sure of in 4S is that all of the top teams will put up HUGE numbers offensively. Venice, Lake Minneola, and now Lakeland will all employ hurry-up offenses led by FBS-caliber QBs and speedy skill position players. Bartram Trail has a major recruit at QB and I'd bet they'll put points up as well. I think Osceola is looking at a bit of a down year, and will be no better than the 4th best team on Lakeland's schedule. Venice's weaknesses will be in the trenches, where I think they're still stuck with the mediocre kids they had last year on the OL, and they lost all 4 starters on the DL who played at least 95% of the plays last year. Lakeland is green in the trenches, and that figures to be their weakest areas as well. Lake Minneola is emerging as something of a recruiting power in its area, and will be better than many think. I want to see Vero Beach win a really big game before I pay much attention to them.

No predictions on records or playoffs until I see the teams play a few games.

 

[Perspective]

1 hour ago, Longtime Observer said:

Of course it is impossible to know how the season will play out on August 1, without having seen any of the teams play. It does seem to be quite hard to imagine 4S being settled without a Lakeland-Venice match up at some point (with the weird, poor ratings system, there's no way to be sure how the seeding will play out, so the game may not be in the state title game).

Lakeland was considerably better than Venice from a talent perspective last year. They did manage a total offense advantage of 392-138, and took a knee at the 1 yard-line late when they could've scored easily. Everyone at Lakeland has said Osceola was easily the best team they played last year. BUT, Lakeland has been much more talented than Venice in each and every game the schools have ever played (lots of spring games in the last ten years). Since 2017, Venice has given Lakeland fits each time (excepting the 2022 spring game). Coaching, execution, scheme etc have all been a clear edge for Venice, making wins very hard to come by despite Lakeland's clear talent advantage. This year, Lakeland has a new coach and a new approach. Will coaching, execution and scheme remain clear Venice advantages??

Looking at returning starters from 2022, Venice has more starters back, with 7 (or 8 if you count both RBs who rarely play at the same time) back on offense and 5-6 back on defense. Lakeland has 4 back on O if counting both Rbs and, generously 3-4 back on D (the DL had a roatation with 2 who played often back). 

Before 2017, what I wrote above would point to favoring Venice to get the best of Lakeland. But, as we all know, the "transfer portal" has dramatically changed (ruined?) the game. Keeping an eye on hudl and Twitter, it appears that Lakeland has received considerably more transfers than Venice. But, Venice has done significantly more to celebrate and outright market its success in the transfer portal, and they do have the highest rated transfer in the state. So, I think the perception is that Venice did better, even though I don't see evidence for that claim.

I think perhaps the only thing we can be sure of in 4S is that all of the top teams will put up HUGE numbers offensively. Venice, Lake Minneola, and now Lakeland will all employ hurry-up offenses led by FBS-caliber QBs and speedy skill position players. Bartram Trail has a major recruit at QB and I'd bet they'll put points up as well. I think Osceola is looking at a bit of a down year, and will be no better than the 4th best team on Lakeland's schedule. Venice's weaknesses will be in the trenches, where I think they're still stuck with the mediocre kids they had last year on the OL, and they lost all 4 starters on the DL who played at least 95% of the plays last year. Lakeland is green in the trenches, and that figures to be their weakest areas as well. Lake Minneola is emerging as something of a recruiting power in its area, and will be better than many think. I want to see Vero Beach win a really big game before I pay much attention to them.

No predictions on records or playoffs until I see the teams play a few games.

 

I've heard Venice has been making an effort to shore up their OL and DL, but it remains to be seen whether those efforts will come to fruition.  

[Longtime Observer]

23 minutes ago, Perspective said:

I've heard Venice has been making an effort to shore up their OL and DL, but it remains to be seen whether those efforts will come to fruition.  

I believe the transfer deadline has passed. So, unless they got some transfers in the last few days, it'll have to happen through what's on the roster now. From what we've seen, if they get a transfer, it's all over social media and will be broadcast by Peacock etc on the youtube show. I doubt they'd add anyone without announcing it.

[VeniceIndianFan]

3 hours ago, Longtime Observer said:

Of course it is impossible to know how the season will play out on August 1, without having seen any of the teams play. It does seem to be quite hard to imagine 4S being settled without a Lakeland-Venice match up at some point (with the weird, poor ratings system, there's no way to be sure how the seeding will play out, so the game may not be in the state title game).

Lakeland was considerably better than Venice from a talent perspective last year. They did manage a total offense advantage of 392-138, and took a knee at the 1 yard-line late when they could've scored easily. Everyone at Lakeland has said Osceola was easily the best team they played last year. BUT, Lakeland has been much more talented than Venice in each and every game the schools have ever played (lots of spring games in the last ten years). Since 2017, Venice has given Lakeland fits each time (excepting the 2022 spring game). Coaching, execution, scheme etc have all been a clear edge for Venice, making wins very hard to come by despite Lakeland's clear talent advantage. This year, Lakeland has a new coach and a new approach. Will coaching, execution and scheme remain clear Venice advantages??

Looking at returning starters from 2022, Venice has more starters back, with 7 (or 8 if you count both RBs who rarely play at the same time) back on offense and 5-6 back on defense. Lakeland has 4 back on O if counting both Rbs and, generously 3-4 back on D (the DL had a roatation with 2 who played often back). 

Before 2017, what I wrote above would point to favoring Venice to get the best of Lakeland. But, as we all know, the "transfer portal" has dramatically changed (ruined?) the game. Keeping an eye on hudl and Twitter, it appears that Lakeland has received considerably more transfers than Venice. But, Venice has done significantly more to celebrate and outright market its success in the transfer portal, and they do have the highest rated transfer in the state. So, I think the perception is that Venice did better, even though I don't see evidence for that claim.

I think perhaps the only thing we can be sure of in 4S is that all of the top teams will put up HUGE numbers offensively. Venice, Lake Minneola, and now Lakeland will all employ hurry-up offenses led by FBS-caliber QBs and speedy skill position players. Bartram Trail has a major recruit at QB and I'd bet they'll put points up as well. I think Osceola is looking at a bit of a down year, and will be no better than the 4th best team on Lakeland's schedule. Venice's weaknesses will be in the trenches, where I think they're still stuck with the mediocre kids they had last year on the OL, and they lost all 4 starters on the DL who played at least 95% of the plays last year. Lakeland is green in the trenches, and that figures to be their weakest areas as well. Lake Minneola is emerging as something of a recruiting power in its area, and will be better than many think. I want to see Vero Beach win a really big game before I pay much attention to them.

No predictions on records or playoffs until I see the teams play a few games.

 

Venice matches up fairly well with Lakeland and has beaten them a few times in recent years. But nothing can ever be taken for granted. Beyond a potential rematch, I think Kissimmee Osceola will be very good once again in spite of the naysayers.  Their offensive line is very strong, and sometimes that’s all you need to see an offense bloom. 
 

Don’t sleep on Manatee. I love their defensive line. They had only 1 senior on their entire defensive unit last year. Very dangerous wide receiving corps in Ramsey Cole, Bonshavion Bean, and Kayvon Reddick. Bartram Trail’s offense will be high-powered but their defensive backfield will need some work if they want to get to the championship game. 
 

Vero Beach is talented but unproven. Treasure Coast’s season is over the second they run into Kissimmee Osceola. 

I disagree that Venice will be weak on the offensive line. We didn’t have a single senior on our entire roster who played on the offensive line. To my knowledge, Venice has never been in such a situation before. If there is one weakness on this team, it’s the defensive end position. If you run up the middle against Venice, you’ll either be running at Ke’shawn Reid, who benches 400 lbs, or Ryan Daly, who played for IMG for 2 years before transferring to Venice. But Either way, excited for the season to start and can’t wait to see how everything shakes out. Go Indians! 

[Vero Indian]

Vero's will turn heads

[Longtime Observer]

I think there is at least a 50% chance that Lakeland and Venice will both have at least one loss in the regular season. Lakeland has Norland, whose QB single-handedly had 500 yards of total offense against Miami Central in a playoff game to go with 27 transfers; St. Joseph's, which may well have the best team in the history of the northeastern United States; and CAI, who I think is going to leave a lot of teams' fans disappointed. Venice also has CAI, who beat them last year; Armwood and a game at Cocoa. Lakeland could absolutely finish 7-3 this season, and Venice could be 8-2. How the silly computer ratings end up rating the teams with those records is anyone's guess! If both teams were to somehow make it to a state title game undefeated, it should be a national top 10 match up. That's unlikely IMO.

[PinellasFB]

9 hours ago, Longtime Observer said:

Lakeland has Norland, whose QB single-handedly had 500 yards of total offense against Miami Central in a playoff game to go with 27 transfers; 

Did I read that correctly that Norland has 27 transfers *in*?  

[VeniceIndianFan]

1 hour ago, PinellasFB said:

Did I read that correctly that Norland has 27 transfers *in*?  

It’s 28 now. Insane. 

[Ray Icaza]

37 minutes ago, VeniceIndianFan said:

It’s 28 now. Insane. 

Teams that rely on them to maintain their "ELITE" status simply are upping the ante year after year.  All the national brand HS teams do it.  To achieve and maintain this status it is a given. 

[Vero Indian]

1 hour ago, VeniceIndianFan said:

It’s 28 now. Insane. 

I saw a Calif kid transfer to Miami yesterday he's a 4 start, I'm wondering where he will end up at?

[VeniceIndianFan]

1 hour ago, Ray Icaza said:

Teams that rely on them to maintain their "ELITE" status simply are upping the ante year after year.  All the national brand HS teams do it.  To achieve and maintain this status it is a given. 

The truly elite Florida teams are mostly all in Broward and Dade. The rest of the state really can’t compete with these juggernauts on a yearly basis without “acquiring” a lot of local talent from other schools. Though I don’t think I’ve ever seen one school “acquire” twenty-eight other kids in one year before. Sheesh. 

[Ray Icaza]

19 minutes ago, VeniceIndianFan said:

The truly elite Florida teams are mostly all in Broward and Dade. The rest of the state really can’t compete with these juggernauts on a yearly basis without “acquiring” a lot of local talent from other schools. Though I don’t think I’ve ever seen one school “acquire” twenty-eight other kids in one year before. Sheesh. 

That has been the case for a long time as that area is not only blessed with the best talent pool but in significant numbers unmatched by the rest of our state.  The "U" became a national contender under Coach Schnellenberger with him declaring all he had to do was get the best players in SFL to achieve this goal when he was hired in 1979.  He built a fence around the "State of Miami" and did just that.  Other national powers eventually realized that fact and invested efforts in that area to compete for said talent.  Thus, the difficulty U of M has had in returning to prominence.  Those area HS schools have not just boasted of their dominance for decades but have most importantly backed it up. 

[PinellasFB]

2 hours ago, Ray Icaza said:

Teams that rely on them to maintain their "ELITE" status simply are upping the ante year after year.  All the national brand HS teams do it.  To achieve and maintain this status it is a given. 

We just need rules in place to stop this nonsense.  Texas seems to have a pretty strong process to evaluate transfers and determine if it was for athletics or an actual move.  Maybe they don't have school choice like FL and it's easier to evaluate?  Anyway, the nonsense part of it to me is what is the point?  Of course your team of hand picked athletes will beat any team of school population athletes (minus the ones you cherry picked from them, of course).  I mean what does this prove by beating a team of non-all stars with your team of all stars?  Do you actually feel a sense of accomplishment?  I don't get it.

[Ray Icaza]

43 minutes ago, PinellasFB said:

We just need rules in place to stop this nonsense.  Texas seems to have a pretty strong process to evaluate transfers and determine if it was for athletics or an actual move.  Maybe they don't have school choice like FL and it's easier to evaluate?  Anyway, the nonsense part of it to me is what is the point?  Of course your team of hand picked athletes will beat any team of school population athletes (minus the ones you cherry picked from them, of course).  I mean what does this prove by beating a team of non-all stars with your team of all stars?  Do you actually feel a sense of accomplishment?  I don't get it.

I have been and still am in complete agreement with you regarding transfers.  People have twisted the famous Vince Lombardi quote of "Winning isn't everything - it is the only Thing" to the extent of cheating and that cheapens the accomplishment.  Without singling out individual schools outside the Dade/Broward area, it has become obvious some have resorted to questionable tactics to achieve this very goal and try to match the talent of those area teams.  I will leave it at that as others may have a different perspective. 

[Longtime Observer]

6 hours ago, PinellasFB said:

Did I read that correctly that Norland has 27 transfers *in*?  

Yes. This is why the Dade crowd is picking Norland to blow out Lakeland. Granted, that crowd would pick *any* Dade team-including the 0-10 teams- to blow out Lakeland. LMAO

[Perspective]

Just a timely reminder that, in many respects, FHSAA's hands are tied on this issue.   The state legislature has enacted laws that essentially keep the FHSAA from restricting transfers.  Any efforts that the FHSAA might make to hinder or delay free transfer for all students (including athletes) - such as sitting out for one year or examining the intent of the move - likely would jeopardize the FHSAA's already fragile relationship with its primary funding source (i.e., the State).   And without getting all political here, if you have state leadership that has shown a willingness to take on multi-million dollar companies over philosophical issues, is there any doubt they would be willing to pull the plug on the FHSAA completely should the FHSAA ignore the state mandates on transferring?   I don't think so. 

So, most everyone agrees we've got a problem.  How can the FHSAA step in and solve the problem without putting its very corporate life in danger?  Tweaking the classifications (numbers/sizes/etc.) might be a start, but that won't solve the transfer issue in my opinion.  What can be done? 

[Longtime Observer]

4 hours ago, Ray Icaza said:

Teams that rely on them to maintain their "ELITE" status simply are upping the ante year after year.  All the national brand HS teams do it.  To achieve and maintain this status it is a given. 

Very bad for the sport IMO. My senior year, we played at Lake Wales. Lake Wales was probably the top dawg in Polk county the first half of the 1990s. It was a bit scary playing them on the road, and they won fairly decisively. It was on the verge of being a blowout, closing at 26-14. Now, Lakeland just took the best player from Lake Wales' 2024 class, 2025 class and 2026 class...right after they went 15-0 and won state. It's WILD.

[Longtime Observer]

1 hour ago, PinellasFB said:

We just need rules in place to stop this nonsense.  Texas seems to have a pretty strong process to evaluate transfers and determine if it was for athletics or an actual move.  Maybe they don't have school choice like FL and it's easier to evaluate?  Anyway, the nonsense part of it to me is what is the point?  Of course your team of hand picked athletes will beat any team of school population athletes (minus the ones you cherry picked from them, of course).  I mean what does this prove by beating a team of non-all stars with your team of all stars?  Do you actually feel a sense of accomplishment?  I don't get it.

The idea, anyway, is to allow every school to stockpile talent as best they can. Just like you see in college football. The programs doing the best job will attract the best players, so the story goes. But, in reality, it's a chicken and egg question. Are the teams attracting the best talent because they're doing the best job? Or are they "doing the best job" primarily through beating teams because they have vastly superior talent? I think Bill Castle built a strong enough track record decades before the wild scene we have now that he could claim the former. That can be said for some others as well of course.

(This issue also applies to schools and their academic ratings. Different topic, though.)

[Longtime Observer]

1 hour ago, Ray Icaza said:

I have been and still am in complete agreement with you regarding transfers.  People have twisted the famous Vince Lombardi quote of "Winning isn't everything - it is the only Thing" to the extent of cheating and that cheapens the accomplishment.  Without singling out individual schools outside the Dade/Broward area, it has become obvious some have resorted to questionable tactics to achieve this very goal and try to match the talent of those area teams.  I will leave it at that as others may have a different perspective. 

I think that, at this point, all of the schools want to acquire as much talent as they can, including through taking players off of rivals' rosters. Some, based on location, history, resources etc, do better at this than others. The "tactics" used now appear to be alumni and community members doing the recruiting. It's not clear how you'd regulate these folks just trying to persuade kids or parents to make the move. But, probably the biggest thing leading to the "super team" building is the kids themselves. Camps, pick-up drills/games and 7v7 are where kids from all of the area schools meet up and hang out. It's just popular right now to play with the other best players in your area.

Another thing is there is much greater awareness of the "big picture", their career as a whole. Players now don't want to play 70-80 plays a game, fearing injury or getting worn down. We're seeing players going places where they know they will be sharing snaps with others, and this is actually the allure! That's a big change from not too long ago, when players never wanted to come out of the game for any reason. 

[PinellasFB]

19 minutes ago, Perspective said:

Just a timely reminder that, in many respects, FHSAA's hands are tied on this issue.   The state legislature has enacted laws that essentially keep the FHSAA from restricting transfers.  Any efforts that the FHSAA might make to hinder or delay free transfer for all students (including athletes) - such as sitting out for one year or examining the intent of the move - likely would jeopardize the FHSAA's already fragile relationship with its primary funding source (i.e., the State).   And without getting all political here, if you have state leadership that has shown a willingness to take on multi-million dollar companies over philosophical issues, is there any doubt they would be willing to pull the plug on the FHSAA completely should the FHSAA ignore the state mandates on transferring?   I don't think so. 

So, most everyone agrees we've got a problem.  How can the FHSAA step in and solve the problem without putting its very corporate life in danger?  Tweaking the classifications (numbers/sizes/etc.) might be a start, but that won't solve the transfer issue in my opinion.  What can be done? 

I guess this is the part I don't understand.  I thought the FHSAA was in charge of eligibility and rules so it seems like it should be outside of the school choice (or whatever it's called these days).  You are still free to transfer to your school of choice but your eligibility is in peril if you can't prove it was associated with a physical move.  Maybe a compromise would be to allow them to continue to play for their old school after their transfer for one year and then become eligible with their new school?  This seems doable to me.  It would also end the "come play with us your senior year" bullshizzle.

[Longtime Observer]

22 minutes ago, Perspective said:

Just a timely reminder that, in many respects, FHSAA's hands are tied on this issue.   The state legislature has enacted laws that essentially keep the FHSAA from restricting transfers.  Any efforts that the FHSAA might make to hinder or delay free transfer for all students (including athletes) - such as sitting out for one year or examining the intent of the move - likely would jeopardize the FHSAA's already fragile relationship with its primary funding source (i.e., the State).   And without getting all political here, if you have state leadership that has shown a willingness to take on multi-million dollar companies over philosophical issues, is there any doubt they would be willing to pull the plug on the FHSAA completely should the FHSAA ignore the state mandates on transferring?   I don't think so. 

So, most everyone agrees we've got a problem.  How can the FHSAA step in and solve the problem without putting its very corporate life in danger?  Tweaking the classifications (numbers/sizes/etc.) might be a start, but that won't solve the transfer issue in my opinion.  What can be done? 

I think all of the transferring is bad, as most everyone else does. But, I'm not sure that using the state or something like the FHSAA to regulate it is the answer. It needs to become cool to stick with the team you've been with all along. This feels like a "toothpaste is already out of the tube" situation. I don't think we'll ever go back to the way things were decades ago.

[Longtime Observer]

It also needs to be pointed out that there is now a trend of families picking up and moving across the state, or to other states, to play football. The "legitimate move" question is thus answered in the affirmative! I can assure you Jaydyn Glasser, Zander Smith, Stacy Gage etc really have moved to Venice, Lakeland and Fort Lauderdale! The kids from California that now play for Miami Central really do live in Miami now! But, the effect of building super teams is definitely enhanced with those guys making the move.