Nolebull813HSAA Playoff format

[nolebull813]

Here’s the way I would do things. Let me know what you think. 
 

3 total classifications based on enrollment

150 teams per class

16 districts each class

Comes out to 9.375 average teams per district (9-10 teams)

 

Each class has the district winners only compete in an “A” bracket. And runner ups in a “B” bracket. And that’s it. 
 

So out of the 9-10 teams in the district, only 2 make a playoff. 
 

it would be called Class 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B, 3A, 3B in the playoffs. 
 

so there would be 6 state champions. 96 teams make the playoffs out of 450 teams which is plenty. Not like the ungodly 248 teams that make it now

[CoachGraham]

Not a fan. Winning the "B classification" would seem like a consolation prize after competing against the "A" schools all year. If you're going to compete for a state title, it needs to be against the same teams for the entire year. Imagine a year like this year where a team like Central would play for the B title...not good for any parties involved. 

This also takes away the chance for the smaller schools to possibly ever win a state title. I know most of you guys are advocates and fans of the larger schools, which is fair and fine, but a new system would need to at least leave them within a chance of competing. With something like this, schools like Port St. Joe would have to compete against a Jax TCA? Not enough parity there. 

 

Obviously there is no "perfect" system, but even just my first point I feel like makes this too flawed. 

[nolebull813]

20 minutes ago, CoachGraham said:

Not a fan. Winning the "B classification" would seem like a consolation prize after competing against the "A" schools all year. If you're going to compete for a state title, it needs to be against the same teams for the entire year. Imagine a year like this year where a team like Central would play for the B title...not good for any parties involved. 

This also takes away the chance for the smaller schools to possibly ever win a state title. I know most of you guys are advocates and fans of the larger schools, which is fair and fine, but a new system would need to at least leave them within a chance of competing. With something like this, schools like Port St. Joe would have to compete against a Jax TCA? Not enough parity there. 

 

Obviously there is no "perfect" system, but even just my first point I feel like makes this too flawed. 

Texas does it like this but uses enrollment to classify them for the playoffs. 4 teams make the playoff from one district and the 2 highest enrollment teams go to the division 1 bracket and the two lowest to division 2. 
 

it wouldn’t be much different than that in a way 

[nolebull813]

21 minutes ago, CoachGraham said:

Not a fan. Winning the "B classification" would seem like a consolation prize after competing against the "A" schools all year. If you're going to compete for a state title, it needs to be against the same teams for the entire year. Imagine a year like this year where a team like Central would play for the B title...not good for any parties involved. 

This also takes away the chance for the smaller schools to possibly ever win a state title. I know most of you guys are advocates and fans of the larger schools, which is fair and fine, but a new system would need to at least leave them within a chance of competing. With something like this, schools like Port St. Joe would have to compete against a Jax TCA? Not enough parity there. 

 

Obviously there is no "perfect" system, but even just my first point I feel like makes this too flawed. 

That’s assuming Pt St Joe won a 10 team district and in that case they should be able to compete 

[CoachGraham]

30 minutes ago, nolebull813 said:

Texas does it like this but uses enrollment to classify them for the playoffs. 4 teams make the playoff from one district and the 2 highest enrollment teams go to the division 1 bracket and the two lowest to division 2. 
 

it wouldn’t be much different than that in a way 

Just because Texas does it doesn't mean it is the right thing to do

 

And I also will admit I don't know the solution, but I feel like this isn't it. 

[CoachGraham]

27 minutes ago, nolebull813 said:

That’s assuming Pt St Joe won a 10 team district and in that case they should be able to compete 

I mean I used them as a filler team, but I'm not even talking about them winning the district. That is kind of my point. A team like PSJ would likely never have a chance to even compete to be a top 2 team in a district with this sort of system. It's just a big "screw you" to the smaller schools to set them up in huge divisions like this. 

[nolebull813]

55 minutes ago, CoachGraham said:

I mean I used them as a filler team, but I'm not even talking about them winning the district. That is kind of my point. A team like PSJ would likely never have a chance to even compete to be a top 2 team in a district with this sort of system. It's just a big "screw you" to the smaller schools to set them up in huge divisions like this. 

They would be in a district with teams close to them in enrollment and proximity. It would be the same teams they play now. 
 

And when people bring up random teams and say they wouldn’t stand a chance, it’s hilarious. Because they don’t stand a chance now. Lol. 
 

These rural teams don’t have a shot against Hawthorne, Williston and Mad Co. but that’s fair when Hawthorne beats them by 50. But God forbid it be North Florida Christian or University Christian. 

[SportsFan]

3 hours ago, nolebull813 said:

Here’s the way I would do things. Let me know what you think. 
 

 

3 total classifications based on enrollment

 

150 teams per class

16 districts each class

Comes out to 9.375 average teams per district (9-10 teams)

 

Each class has the district winners only compete in an “A” bracket. And runner ups in a “B” bracket. And that’s it. 
 

So out of the 9-10 teams in the district, only 2 make a playoff. 
 

it would be called Class 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B, 3A, 3B in the playoffs. 
 

so there would be 6 state champions. 96 teams make the playoffs out of 450 teams which is plenty. Not like the ungodly 248 teams that make it 

Maybe actually show what it would look like

[nolebull813]

6 minutes ago, SportsFan said:

Maybe actually show what it would look like

I’m at work playing hooky. Think of it as you are getting the info for free. anything else and I gotta put up a pay wall 

[nhsehs]

Not to hijack the thread but here's my thought on playoffs.

Go back to 6-8 classifications based on enrollment/geography (before Metro/Suburban). Play district/non-district schedule, then take the 32 teams who have the most transfers (tracked by GA-4 forms) and put them in an Open Division bracket. 

Everyone else fills out the 1A-8A brackets with district champions in automatically and Maxpreps/RPI/whatever ranking system determining at-large bids.

[SportsFan]

48 minutes ago, nolebull813 said:

I’m at work playing hooky. Think of it as you are getting the info for free. anything else and I gotta put up a pay wall 

What info? Everything you said is too vague bull nole"s"

[Ray Icaza]

Interesting article in sports section in today's Orlando Sentinel by Buddy Collins regarding the FHSAA brain trust looking at ideas for re-classification for next year.  Here it is for anyone interested in reading it.  By the way, the INFO is FREE!!                                                      iVarsity Weekly: New twist on FHSAA Open division talk; playoffs heat up (orlandosentinel.com)

 

[Perspective]

Someone correct me if I am wrong (and I have a great deal of confidence that one or more of you will jump at the opportunity to do so if that is the case):  the "new" Open Class idea being considered by the FHSAA basically forces teams into that Big Dawg of classifications based on the success the team had that season or the season before, right?  My biggest concern with that approach is that it 'penalizes' the schools that have the occasional once-in-a-generation, stars-align, special season where they have a chance (under the current system) to make a run at a state title.   No guaranties that they'll win it and they'll likely have to knock off a perennial power to do so, but they can make a run at it and if everything goes their way, they may end up with a championship.  I'm thinking of teams like Bloomingdale or Bartram Trail a few years ago (and forgive me if those teams have had more success than I recall), that have a couple of special athletes and/or an exceptional class that outperforms anything the school has done in recent history.  To me, that's what high school football is all about.   If you force those teams into a 16 or 32 team winner-take-all Big Dawg playoff system, you likely deprive those schools of their moment in the sun.  Even worse, if you make a team like that play in that kind of division the year after they have their glory season, you're relegating them to a miserable season of playing all the other perennial powers and going from the highest of highs to the lowest of lows. 

That also is my biggest hesitation to a promotion/relegation system.  That works in professional sports where you can hang onto to star players for more than a year or two and where you have the ability to use the financial benefits of your new-found success to further improve your roster.   More often than not, that's simply not the case with high school football.  Teams that have an amazing run one year typically fall back to where they've been the past decade. 

I tend to come down in favor of an open division for the creme de la creme.  Cap the number at a set number of teams (probably somewhere around 15-20, with the understanding that not every team will make the playoffs).  The teams in this division would not be in a district, but could play any teams willing to play them in the regular season, so long as they played a minimum number of games against other open-division opponents.  But here's the biggest difference in what I think the FHSAA is considering and what I'd prefer to see:  the teams get to decide if they want to play in this division or not . . . perhaps a 2-year commitment, maybe even 3 or 4).   I'm guessing teams like Central, MNW, AH, TCA, Chaminade, Cocoa, STA, Norland, Columbus, Lakeland, Venice, Armwood, Jesuit, Apopka, Osceola, and others would be good candidates (my apologies to any Williston fans for not mentioning them).  Take those teams out of the regular playoffs, and perhaps reduce the number of classifications by a couple, with larger districts, and maybe limit/handicap transfers into these 'regular' schools, while letting the open division schools essentially do what they want, and I think you'd see more competitive playoffs  and one helluva playoffs in the open division. 

Just a thought . . . or two. 

[DarterBlue2]

1 hour ago, Perspective said:

Someone correct me if I am wrong (and I have a great deal of confidence that one or more of you will jump at the opportunity to do so if that is the case):  the "new" Open Class idea being considered by the FHSAA basically forces teams into that Big Dawg of classifications based on the success the team had that season or the season before, right?  My biggest concern with that approach is that it 'penalizes' the schools that have the occasional once-in-a-generation, stars-align, special season where they have a chance (under the current system) to make a run at a state title.   No guaranties that they'll win it and they'll likely have to knock off a perennial power to do so, but they can make a run at it and if everything goes their way, they may end up with a championship.  I'm thinking of teams like Bloomingdale

The current proposal would split out the best 32 teams based on current year rankings into a superclass for the playoffs. So, if it were effective this year: Chaminade, Cocoa, ... Edgewater, St. Augustine, ... Bradford, Eu Galle, ... Treasure Coast, Jesuit, ... Cardinal Gibbons, Carolwood Day, ... Palmetto and Deland, would all be in the superclass if the season had ended last Friday. A cursory look at the teams I have included (they were not randomly selected from the 32) demonstrates the absurdity of this method. There is a world of difference between Chaminade and Bradford or Eu Galle. And I could have included more extreme examples. And these 32 teams would be competing for only one state title: The title of titles, so as to speak. And participation would be mandatory. 

Buddy Collings in the Orlando Sentinel had an article suggesting a modification to the above a week or so ago. In it, he would still break out the top teams. But rather than one title, there would be multiple titles along the way to a grand final for the top title. I forget the details of how the multiple titles would work, but seem to remember there would be at least 3 based on specific criteria. I actually thought his suggestion, on face value had some merit. I see no merit in the current FHSAA proposal for reasons outlined in my first paragraph. 

I do actually have sympathies for a promote/relegate system. But I would use multiple year performance to separate the schools into tiers at the beginning of this process and would use at least two years results before moving a school up or down a classification. That way, ascent/decent would be a gradual process and would not be affected by one special year.  

[nolebull813]

Teams ranked 32, 31 etc are gonna lose on purpose towards the end so they can escape the super bracket in exchange for the path of lesser resistance. 
 

Plus this will render all the other brackets meaningless. This will create a true A bracket and then a bunch of C and D brackets. 

[Perspective]

14 hours ago, DarterBlue2 said:

 

Buddy Collings in the Orlando Sentinel had an article suggesting a modification to the above a week or so ago. In it, he would still break out the top teams. But rather than one title, there would be multiple titles along the way to a grand final for the top title.

 

Isn't that the way it works now?  But they just call them District Championships and Regional Championships. 

In my view, if you're still playing games after you win a so-called "state championship," that state championship loses a lot of its luster.   The only thing that would change my perspective on that issue would be a Florida state championship team playing in a national title game/tournament, which doesn't exist yet. 

[CoachGraham]

22 hours ago, nolebull813 said:

They would be in a district with teams close to them in enrollment and proximity. It would be the same teams they play now. 
 

And when people bring up random teams and say they wouldn’t stand a chance, it’s hilarious. Because they don’t stand a chance now. Lol. 
 

These rural teams don’t have a shot against Hawthorne, Williston and Mad Co. but that’s fair when Hawthorne beats them by 50. But God forbid it be North Florida Christian or University Christian. 

The Hawthorne, Williston, and Mad Co. argument is a whole different problem. That is why I am more of a fan of a relegation and succession system personally. Not sure exactly how that would work, but if we are just looking at keeping the playing field as level as possible, that is what we would need. 

The idea, though, is that Madison was beaten by Union County last year. Williston was upset in the first round by Wildwood. Hawthorne almost (and should've frankly) lost to Pahokee. There are chances for THOSE teams to lose. An NFC or University Christian in THOSE classifications will almost always win. If Madco or Williston have a down year, they get upset. If NFC or University Christian in those classifications have a down year, they could still win it all or at the very least go deep into the playoffs. 

And to say they don't stand a chance now isn't even necessarily true. Northview only lost 13-2 to Hawthorne in a sloppy game in last year's state title game. It was at the very least competitive. But these are the types of arguments that people who aren't as close to the rural level try to make. And don't get me wrong there is *some* merit to it, but it is not the full story. 

But I will reiterate: I am not the wisest and don't have a better solution. There just has to be *something* better than this...and honestly with the lack of trust I have in the FHSAA and the way they break up classifications, they will end up picking something worse lol.

[CoachGraham]

16 hours ago, Perspective said:

Someone correct me if I am wrong (and I have a great deal of confidence that one or more of you will jump at the opportunity to do so if that is the case):  the "new" Open Class idea being considered by the FHSAA basically forces teams into that Big Dawg of classifications based on the success the team had that season or the season before, right?  My biggest concern with that approach is that it 'penalizes' the schools that have the occasional once-in-a-generation, stars-align, special season where they have a chance (under the current system) to make a run at a state title.   No guaranties that they'll win it and they'll likely have to knock off a perennial power to do so, but they can make a run at it and if everything goes their way, they may end up with a championship.  I'm thinking of teams like Bloomingdale or Bartram Trail a few years ago (and forgive me if those teams have had more success than I recall), that have a couple of special athletes and/or an exceptional class that outperforms anything the school has done in recent history.  To me, that's what high school football is all about.   If you force those teams into a 16 or 32 team winner-take-all Big Dawg playoff system, you likely deprive those schools of their moment in the sun.  Even worse, if you make a team like that play in that kind of division the year after they have their glory season, you're relegating them to a miserable season of playing all the other perennial powers and going from the highest of highs to the lowest of lows. 

That also is my biggest hesitation to a promotion/relegation system.  That works in professional sports where you can hang onto to star players for more than a year or two and where you have the ability to use the financial benefits of your new-found success to further improve your roster.   More often than not, that's simply not the case with high school football.  Teams that have an amazing run one year typically fall back to where they've been the past decade. 

I tend to come down in favor of an open division for the creme de la creme.  Cap the number at a set number of teams (probably somewhere around 15-20, with the understanding that not every team will make the playoffs).  The teams in this division would not be in a district, but could play any teams willing to play them in the regular season, so long as they played a minimum number of games against other open-division opponents.  But here's the biggest difference in what I think the FHSAA is considering and what I'd prefer to see:  the teams get to decide if they want to play in this division or not . . . perhaps a 2-year commitment, maybe even 3 or 4).   I'm guessing teams like Central, MNW, AH, TCA, Chaminade, Cocoa, STA, Norland, Columbus, Lakeland, Venice, Armwood, Jesuit, Apopka, Osceola, and others would be good candidates (my apologies to any Williston fans for not mentioning them).  Take those teams out of the regular playoffs, and perhaps reduce the number of classifications by a couple, with larger districts, and maybe limit/handicap transfers into these 'regular' schools, while letting the open division schools essentially do what they want, and I think you'd see more competitive playoffs  and one helluva playoffs in the open division. 

Just a thought . . . or two. 

There should be a sort of 2-4 year statistical breakdown of wins/losses/points that the team has amassed based on the FHSAA ranking. If you consistently fall in the higher/lower end of those classifications, then you can be promoted/relegated. This way you allow for those once-in-a-lifetime super seasons for a school, but if they fall back to Earth after a season or two, they can still be competitive. 

[nolebull813]

What if we did it based on wins? Every team in the state makes the playoffs. At the end of the regular season all of the teams with 10 wins play one bracket, all of the teams with 9 wins play in another bracket and so on. we can crown 11 state champions. Who is on board?

[nolebull813]

1 hour ago, CoachGraham said:

The Hawthorne, Williston, and Mad Co. argument is a whole different problem. That is why I am more of a fan of a relegation and succession system personally. Not sure exactly how that would work, but if we are just looking at keeping the playing field as level as possible, that is what we would need. 

The idea, though, is that Madison was beaten by Union County last year. Williston was upset in the first round by Wildwood. Hawthorne almost (and should've frankly) lost to Pahokee. There are chances for THOSE teams to lose. An NFC or University Christian in THOSE classifications will almost always win. If Madco or Williston have a down year, they get upset. If NFC or University Christian in those classifications have a down year, they could still win it all or at the very least go deep into the playoffs. 

And to say they don't stand a chance now isn't even necessarily true. Northview only lost 13-2 to Hawthorne in a sloppy game in last year's state title game. It was at the very least competitive. But these are the types of arguments that people who aren't as close to the rural level try to make. And don't get me wrong there is *some* merit to it, but it is not the full story. 

But I will reiterate: I am not the wisest and don't have a better solution. There just has to be *something* better than this...and honestly with the lack of trust I have in the FHSAA and the way they break up classifications, they will end up picking something worse lol.

Pahokee lost in the first round of the rural playoffs the year they beat state champion university Christian. These teams can be beaten. I look at some of the rural scores against each other, and there are countless 40, 50, 60 point margin of victories. 
 

it doesn’t matter how you do it. There are going to be teams that will contend for a title no matter what, and then there are teams that have zero shot. That’s how it is and that’s how it’s always been.

[Dr. D]

Regardless of the merits of the many plans put forth here, one thing needs to be kept in mind.  In reviewing the 2022-23 FHSAA Financial Report, about $2.5 million in revenue was earned from FHSAA postseason competitions, undoubtedly the vast majority from football playoff ticket sales.  This revenue goes to support the operations and many other activities that the FHSAA sponsors.  So I would not expect the FHSAA to reduce the number of classifications (and thus the number of playoff games) any time soon.  Or in the words of the astute Nulli Secundus, "follow the money".  

[nolebull813]

11 minutes ago, Dr. D said:

Regardless of the merits of the many plans put forth here, one thing needs to be kept in mind.  In reviewing the 2022-23 FHSAA Financial Report, about $2.5 million in revenue was earned from FHSAA postseason competitions, undoubtedly the vast majority from football playoff ticket sales.  This revenue goes to support the operations and many other activities that the FHSAA sponsors.  So I would not expect the FHSAA to reduce the number of classifications (and thus the number of playoff games) any time soon.  Or in the words of the astute Nulli Secundus, "follow the money".  

As long as they admitted that. The part I can’t stand is when they pretend to care about student athletes and healthy competition. I wish they would just come out and say this is a business we run, and we are in it to turn a profit. The sad thing is there are coaches out there that don’t mind the watering down classifications because it makes it easier to be more successful even if it’s imaginary to the untrained eye. 
 

Last year Lake Wales should have played Lakeland with the winner going off to play the winner of the Venice/Mainland game for the state title. And so on. 

[ExplorerHomer2]

2 hours ago, Dr. D said:

Regardless of the merits of the many plans put forth here, one thing needs to be kept in mind.  In reviewing the 2022-23 FHSAA Financial Report, about $2.5 million in revenue was earned from FHSAA postseason competitions, undoubtedly the vast majority from football playoff ticket sales.  This revenue goes to support the operations and many other activities that the FHSAA sponsors.  So I would not expect the FHSAA to reduce the number of classifications (and thus the number of playoff games) any time soon.  Or in the words of the astute Nulli Secundus, "follow the money".  

This.

Unfortunately, here is the world of perverse incentives: if one has a choice the "right" thing, or the "wrong" thing; the thing that helps the kids, or the things that don't; the things that lift up society, or the things that bring it down, the choice is always predictable in each of these scenarios: we invariably choose the one that is profitable.

Almost every social ill can be boiled down to this.