How did Lakeland jump Viera to get #1 seed?

[badbird]

40 minutes ago, Bamarod said:

Ok then, You are saying the schedule that Lakeland played is better than the one Viera played? You  high?

can you share?

[DarterBlue2]

51 minutes ago, Bamarod said:

This is the second time you expected me to reschedule the game. Dumbbird from hence forth, sorry, I'm just a parent not a coach. If you are an Osceola coach, explain when the make-up was to take place, if not a coach, shut the hell up on the matter. It isn't like Viera is scared of playing Osceola, that is why they scheduled the game to begin with. They like challenging games to get ready for play-offs.

 And just like two years ago, we will beat Plant and Lakeland  back to back if we are good enough. Just this time Viera deserves that game to be played at Viera. The community deserves it.

You keep saying deserved, but you did not do what you needed to under the new system. You were not cheated and were not punished for playing Gonzaga. Your points for the Gonzaga game fell due to losses late in the season by that team. Now if you argue that the new system punishes you for factors outside your control, I may throw a little sympathy your way. 

Bad Bird is a knowledgeable, former coach at many different schools. I don't remembering him denigrating you by calling you stupid in any of his posts. You are actually making yourself look like a whiner, if not stupid, by the nature of some of your posts. 

My advice is, move on and encourage your son, if he plays for Viera, to enjoy the playoff experience. If you are unable to do that, I may revise my opinion and think you are a fool!

[Bamarod]

1 hour ago, DarterBlue2 said:

You keep saying deserved, but you did not do what you needed to under the new system. You were not cheated and were not punished for playing Gonzaga. Your points for the Gonzaga game fell due to losses late in the season by that team. Now if you argue that the new system punishes you for factors outside your control, I may throw a little sympathy your way. 

Bad Bird is a knowledgeable, former coach at many different schools. I don't remembering him denigrating you by calling you stupid in any of his posts. You are actually making yourself look like a whiner, if not stupid, by the nature of some of your posts. 

My advice is, move on and encourage your son, if he plays for Viera, to enjoy the playoff experience. If you are unable to do that, I may revise my opinion and think you are a fool!

Wasn't addressing you, but on several threads bad bird has suggested that Viera had dodged a reschedule of Viera-Osceola game that was cancelled by hurricane. Knowing the scheduling philosophy of Viera's coaching staff I got irritated by his innuendos. So I apologize for going a step too far. but he should know better than to suggest crap like that and not back it up. 

[Bamarod]

1 hour ago, badbird said:

you meaning Viera.  Did anyone say Viera was scared?  I was pointing out if they played it you might not be on here bitching and crying about getting the 2 seed.  Enjoy your trips to Plant and maybe Lakeland.  I might make my way over to that game and then you won't have to be an internet tough guy.    

  I started the thread to get clarification why Viera who had a tougher schedule was screwed out of the number one seed. Got some decent feedback, even from you, although you are wrong, Viera will host Plant in round 2.

[badbird]

Just now, Bamarod said:

  I started the thread to get clarification why Viera who had a tougher schedule was screwed out of the number one seed. Got some decent feedback, even from you, although you are wrong, Viera will host Plant in round 2.

haha I am wrong.  Travel over there anyway they have a really nice stadium and atmosphere for a high school game

[gwdrum75]

17 minutes ago, Bamarod said:

  I started the thread to get clarification why Viera who had a tougher schedule was screwed out of the number one seed. Got some decent feedback, even from you, although you are wrong, Viera will host Plant in round 2.

Viera wasn't screwed out of anything. Bottom line......a loss hurts. With this system you have to balance a challenging schedule with games you think you can win. Booker T Washington is the perfect example of that.

As i said, had East Lake not had to forfeit their early games, Lakeland would have got more points out of that win and the gap between Viera and Lakeland would have been larger. 

There are tweaks that need to be made to this system, no doubt. And every team will have to adjust to those changes as they occur.

[DarterBlue2]

10 minutes ago, gwdrum75 said:

Viera wasn't screwed out of anything. Bottom line......a loss hurts. With this system you have to balance a challenging schedule with games you think you can win. Booker T Washington is the perfect example of that.

As i said, had East Lake not had to forfeit their early games, Lakeland would have got more points out of that win and the gap between Viera and Lakeland would have been larger. 

There are tweaks that need to be made to this system, no doubt. And every team will have to adjust to those changes as they occur.

I think it makes him feel better to play victim. Hope those close to him are not influenced by this behavior. Perhaps, after a night's rest, he will reread his posts and realize the error of his ways ... or perhaps not ...

[Dan in Daytona]

38 minutes ago, Bamarod said:

Wasn't addressing you, but on several threads bad bird has suggested that Viera had dodged a reschedule of Viera-Osceola game that was cancelled by hurricane. Knowing the scheduling philosophy of Viera's coaching staff I got irritated by his innuendos. So I apologize for going a step too far. but he should know better than to suggest crap like that and not back it up. 

Heads up Bamarod, just between you and me, badbird "Knows" the Osceola Kowboys very well. You could say his inside knowledge of the program shouldn't be questioned at this time. 

[Bamarod]

1 hour ago, Dan in Daytona said:

Heads up Bamarod, just between you and me, badbird "Knows" the Osceola Kowboys very well. You could say his inside knowledge of the program shouldn't be questioned at this time. 

Wish he would of been a little more forthcoming with his info; and there are two sides to every story. Regret we didn't see one of the better games in state played this year, bottom line. And thanks...

[OHS_Kboys]

12 hours ago, Bamarod said:

Wasn't addressing you, but on several threads bad bird has suggested that Viera had dodged a reschedule of Viera-Osceola game that was cancelled by hurricane. Knowing the scheduling philosophy of Viera's coaching staff I got irritated by his innuendos. So I apologize for going a step too far. but he should know better than to suggest crap like that and not back it up. 

We tried to reschedule with Viera during their Bye week (October 20th)...They played Martin County on October 13th, wanted to play on Monday or Tuesday of the following week which would have been the 16th or 17th....repeated calls went unanswered and messages not returned. I even reached out to one of the coaches that's friends with me on Facebook, he said he would say something to the Head Coach, weeks later he still has never brought the subject back up. 

[badbird]

and there it is or at least part of it.  No one thinks Viera was scared and I actually think Viera has a great chance to win a state title this year.  Osceola wanted to reschedule the game, Viera had their reasons not to.  I would not have brought it up again and only did because you were wondering why they dropped below Lakeland.  A win over Osceola would have them at the #1 seed and Viera at home would have been the favorite in that game.  Viera is very well coached.  I have seen them on film a few times and should do well in the post season.

[Cat_Scratch]

How does a team earn bonus points? Is it for playing a team with a winning record, cause some wins against teams ranked 2 and 3 awarded no bonus? Not sure how you are awarded extra points in this system.

https://www.fhsaa.org/sites/default/files/orig_uploads/sports/football/archives/2017-18/Class 7A Master Schedules.pdf

https://www.fhsaa.org/sports/football

[DisabledAccount]

9 minutes ago, Cat_Scratch said:

How does a team earn bonus points? Is it for playing a team with a winning record, cause some wins against teams ranked 2 and 3 awarded no bonus? Not sure how you are awarded extra points in this system.

https://www.fhsaa.org/sites/default/files/orig_uploads/sports/football/archives/2017-18/Class 7A Master Schedules.pdf

https://www.fhsaa.org/sports/football

Playoff appearances from previous cycle so 2015 or 2016

[Cat_Scratch]

5 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Playoff appearances from previous cycle so 2015 or 2016

I remember that now. Thanks for the refresher.

[Mustangs78]

You guys are still killing me about this Kowboys/Hawks reschedule or not reschedule.  Viera is not a #1 seed because they got only 33 points for a loss to a top 6 team in all classifiations in our state (they did lose to Rock.) Cocoa.  And somehow the Dreadnaughts got 35 points for kicking  Bartow's 2 - 8 butt. 

Side note; Kathleen is better than Winter Haven, Gaither, East River, Wire Grass, and Lake Nona.  Lakeland, Viera, and Plant should be pleased the computer kicked them out,

[gwdrum75]

The thought of a Lakeland/Kathleen rematch (back-to-back as well) made me extremely nervous. It's a rivalry game and always close. Kathleen has one of the better defenses in the state and Strickland always knows how to get them motivated to play Lakeland.

 

[STILL KRUNK]

On 11/5/2017 at 5:04 PM, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

actually you get more points for beating good teams but the problem is beating bad teams gets more points then losing to good ones

 

I think they fix that in off season though

Unfortunately that does nothing for the seniors who will graduate this year...... kind of thought the whole idea was to get the best of the best in, that would mean teams that schedule tough will have a loss or 2 but some good wins, Not schedule average teams and get in on points.

Some of these "great match ups" yall see out there, aren't going to be a great as they look.

[DisabledAccount]

Just now, STILL KRUNK said:

Unfortunately that does nothing for the seniors who will graduate this year...... kind of thought the whole idea was to get the best of the best in, that would mean teams that schedule tough will have a loss or 2 but some good wins, Not schedule average teams and get in on points.

Some of these "great match ups" yall see out there, aren't going to be a great as they look.

And the old system was perfect? 

 

They changed the points you could gain by losses but problem was they orginally gave too many points and they had projections of a winless team making the playoffs so they altered it

 

Now that they have results to compare with they can change the allocation of points 

 

This system or one similar to it has been used in multiple states with good success rates 

 

The system will work once they fix the kinks out

[Cat_Scratch]

Just now, gwdrum75 said:

The thought of a Lakeland/Kathleen rematch (back-to-back as well) made me extremely nervous. It's a rivalry game and always close. Kathleen has one of the better defenses in the state and Strickland always knows how to get them motivated to play Lakeland.

 

I have to agree. Rival games... No matter how good one team is over the other they always seem to play to another level against each other.

The one bad thing about rival games seems to be that players get hurt more. Anything can happen in a rival game, all records go out the window. Imagine how good some teams could be if the coaches could get their team up for every game like it was a rival game.  

[DisabledAccount]

Just now, Cat_Scratch said:

I have to agree. Rival games... No matter how good one team is over the other they always seem to play to another level against each other.

The one bad thing about rival games seems to be that players get hurt more. Anything can happen in a rival game, all records go out the window. Imagine how good some teams could be if the coaches could get their team up for every game like it was a rival game.  

Maybe it's good to have multiple rivals (or in columbia case everyone or at least in my opinion, idk how many teams the players consider as rivals but i see every team we play as a rival) 

[DisabledAccount]

8 minutes ago, STILL KRUNK said:

Unfortunately that does nothing for the seniors who will graduate this year...... kind of thought the whole idea was to get the best of the best in, that would mean teams that schedule tough will have a loss or 2 but some good wins, Not schedule average teams and get in on points.

Some of these "great match ups" yall see out there, aren't going to be a great as they look.

Btw those teams scheduling cupcakes will be exposed in playoffs 

[STILL KRUNK]

18 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Btw those teams scheduling cupcakes will be exposed in playoffs 

but that is my point.  If there is that much "variable" in good teams and cupcakes, Then You don't take it out of the hands of the teams, the players, the Kids.  You don't split the hair of top 8 when a Loss to a Top 5 team in a class is Trumped by another team who beats a lower class team who Cat 1s a weak district and favorable schedule.  

You put 16 teams out there Week 1 and let THAT expose the cupcakes, Not a computer or Committee.

Last time I will say this until somebody wants to talk about Change in this Post season format in some manner.

 

West Orange:

Loses to Olympia in final seconds,  8A playoff team Cat 2

Loses to Dr. Phillips #1 team in State at the time (was leading at half), 8A playoff team Cat 1

Loses to Wekiva in final seconds, top 10 in State, 8A playoff team, Cat 1

Loses to Jones, Top 10 team in State, shut them out 2nd Half-JHS lowest point total playoff team, Cat 1

Beats Apopka, #1 Team in the State at the time.

Finishes 6-4, with 4 game win streak on the way out, District Runner up to Wekiva, (Apopka 3rd in District) with all games away due to condemned stadium(Irma). Now I'm not saying put West Orange directly in Camping World Stadium, but that's not top 8 in the region?????

Compare that to the rest of the region who is IN................ Hard to say that is not as good as, or better than 5, 6, 7, or 8, in 8A Region 1.  One of which they beat Head to Head. 

 

This is why your numbers aren't reliable enough to parse an 8 team playoff.  You like your system fine, keep it, but then you open up the first round to 16 teams and let the kids have the opportunity, your numbers can SEED teams. Otherwise you are going to have to weigh a lot more factors in your system. Because the only people you hurt by this is 30 seniors, most of who will never play again and playoffs are really the only reason they work all year long.  I'm not playing my own violin,  that goes for ALL schools, who ever gets put in this situation, these kids work year round with most of them only wanting the opportunity to get to one post season and then they are done, DONE, forever.........And you want to allow "points to determine that.  You are telling me THIS system accurately distinguishing from 7-3 to 5-5, with varying wins, degree of difficulty and weight of classification???????????? Enough so to say 'These are the top 8".......Really????????? 

I say that because the FHSAA system says, "Executive Director has discretion to waive......" That was put there for a reason.  You (meaning the powers that be) saw the gaming of the system, you heard the complaints coming in, you saw the unusually odd and multiple self-reporting immediately after district play closed, you saw the canceling of games to get better averages, you saw ALL of it,  and then decided to ride out a not fully-vetted system, making a bad decision worse, especially when dealing with kids.

And no one is saying flip back to the old, but when you see it is screwed up, You open the playing field and let the kids sort it out on the field.  This system takes it out of the kids hands.

With all due respect to you all my colleagues and friends, you know this to be true.

 

[DisabledAccount]

4 minutes ago, STILL KRUNK said:

but that is my point.  If there is that much "variable" in good teams and cupcakes, Then You don't take it out of the hands of the teams, the players, the Kids.  You don't split the hair of top 8 when a Loss to a Top 5 team in a class is Trumped by another team who beats a lower class team who Cat 1s a weak district and favorable schedule.  

You put 16 teams out there Week 1 and let THAT expose the cupcakes, Not a computer or Committee.

Last time I will say this until somebody wants to talk about Change in this Post season format in some manner.

 

West Orange:

Loses to Olympia in final seconds,  8A playoff team Cat 2

Loses to Dr. Phillips #1 team in State at the time (was leading at half), 8A playoff team Cat 1

Loses to Wekiva in final seconds, top 10 in State, 8A playoff team, Cat 1

Loses to Jones, Top 10 team in State, shut them out 2nd Half-JHS lowest point total playoff team, Cat 1

Beats Apopka, #1 Team in the State at the time.

Finishes 6-4, with 4 game win streak on the way out, District Runner up to Wekiva, (Apopka 3rd in District) with all games away due to condemned stadium(Irma). Now I'm not saying put West Orange directly in Camping World Stadium, but that's not top 8 in the region?????

Compare that to the rest of the region who is IN................ Hard to say that is not as good as, or better than 5, 6, 7, or 8, in 8A Region 1.  One of which they beat Head to Head. 

 

This is why your numbers aren't reliable enough to parse an 8 team playoff.  You like your system fine, keep it, but then you open up the first round to 16 teams and let the kids have the opportunity, your numbers can SEED teams. Otherwise you are going to have to weigh a lot more factors in your system. Because the only people you hurt by this is 30 seniors, most of who will never play again and playoffs are really the only reason they work all year long.  I'm not playing my own violin,  that goes for ALL schools, who ever gets put in this situation, these kids work year round with most of them only wanting the opportunity to get to one post season and then they are done, DONE, forever.........And you want to allow "points to determine that.  You are telling me THIS system accurately distinguishing from 7-3 to 5-5, with varying wins, degree of difficulty and weight of classification???????????? Enough so to say 'These are the top 8".......Really????????? 

I say that because the FHSAA system says, "Executive Director has discretion to waive......" That was put there for a reason.  You (meaning the powers that be) saw the gaming of the system, you heard the complaints coming in, you saw the unusually odd and multiple self-reporting immediately after district play closed, you saw the canceling of games to get better averages, you saw ALL of it,  and then decided to ride out a not fully-vetted system, making a bad decision worse, especially when dealing with kids.

And no one is saying flip back to the old, but when you see it is screwed up, You open the playing field and let the kids sort it out on the field.  This system takes it out of the kids hands.

With all due respect to you all my colleagues and friends, you know this to be true.

 

I do find it disgraceful that teams are trying to game the system and i hope they get blown out of the playoffs in embarrassing fashion and while they can expand the playoffs they can't do it week 11 of a season

 

That's something that has to be done in the off season 

[STILL KRUNK]

9 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

I do find it disgraceful that teams are trying to game the system and i hope they get blown out of the playoffs in embarrassing fashion and while they can expand the playoffs they can't do it week 11 of a season

 

That's something that has to be done in the off season 

Well they Could Cat, they could.....it really depends on whether you want to fix a mistake or not.  the 11th game of the season, would be irrelevant to points if the field was expanded in the last week.  No top seeds would not complain (because they would seemingly get an easier seeding then 5-8), all you have to do is reroute buses.

But it was seen coming, everyone was watching it evolve, it could have been done week 9, week 10, all of that i mentioned was known, except for the self reporting, but the rest was enough to invoke such executive change.

I agree it is more work than running a few numbers through an algorithm, IF it were important not to squander away a young kid's opportunity, IF that were top priority, then no, not much work at all.

[954gator]

On November 5, 2017 at 5:00 PM, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

but it don't matter, if Viera is best in 7a like you been saying you all wont have trouble beating Lakeland on the road, didn't you all do that 2 years ago?

Home field always matters.  I hope teams don't shy away from tough OOS games or tough in state games for  playoff seeding.