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561_Fan
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The QB is still in the pocket…the DL and OL are engaged (think of a bull rush) and the OL pulls the defender down (by his jersey and he falls face first). Is that holding? Or is that a good technique, that makes the DL look as if he lost his balance? Bradford’s tackles have perfected that technique, they got away with it all game.

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3 hours ago, 561_Fan said:

The QB is still in the pocket…the DL and OL are engaged (think of a bull rush) and the OL pulls the defender down (by his jersey and he falls face first). Is that holding? Or is that a good technique, that makes the DL look as if he lost his balance? Bradford’s tackles have perfected that technique, they got away with it all game.

I think as a general rule, holding by OL has been perfected over the years so they tend to get away with it if a certain technique is employed.  Your example is one that is clearly holding but tend to get away with.  That's why I have said on the forum before, "Holding can be virtually called on Every Play".  That's why when one team gets flagged several times and the other hardly at all it makes you wonder.  Our game vs West Orange had both teams get away with holding most of the game and don't recall either team being flagged for it.  If the refs are going to call it tight, do so on both sides or as in this game just ignore it on both sides so players can adjust to your calls. 

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5 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:

I think as a general rule, holding by OL has been perfected over the years so they tend to get away with it if a certain technique is employed.  Your example is one that is clearly holding but tend to get away with.  That's why I have said on the forum before, "Holding can be virtually called on Every Play".  That's why when one team gets flagged several times and the other hardly at all it makes you wonder.  Our game vs West Orange had both teams get away with holding most of the game and don't recall either team being flagged for it.  If the refs are going to call it tight, do so on both sides or as in this game just ignore it on both sides so players can adjust to your calls. 

Ray, I'll take it one step further . . . there needs to be a certain amount of consistency game in and game out, regardless of which crew shows up.   I know there will always be a certain amount of discretion and everyone's judgment is slightly different from everyone else's.  But at least 90% of the calls (and the no-calls) should be the same week in and week out. 

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4 minutes ago, Perspective said:

Ray, I'll take it one step further . . . there needs to be a certain amount of consistency game in and game out, regardless of which crew shows up.   I know there will always be a certain amount of discretion and everyone's judgment is slightly different from everyone else's.  But at least 90% of the calls (and the no-calls) should be the same week in and week out. 

UTOPIA???

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3 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:

UTOPIA???

That's what I thought......  Don't get me wrong, your prescription would be the best medicine, but I have been more involved with our school with basketball than with football and that prescription would apply there to.  But for decades, that isn't reality on the court; some games are called tight and others not.  So all I am saying is within that particular game, "Be Consistent".  That is easier to achieve and coaches, players alike will at least deem it "FAIR".

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10 minutes ago, 561_Fan said:

I agree, that if you’re gonna let some stuff go, then do it both ways and for the entire game. Don’t decide the game with a call that you let go all game…but this also hurts teams that have great pass rushers and weaker secondaries

Madco secondary had problems with bradford too, 

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13 hours ago, 561_Fan said:

The QB is still in the pocket…the DL and OL are engaged (think of a bull rush) and the OL pulls the defender down (by his jersey and he falls face first). Is that holding? Or is that a good technique, that makes the DL look as if he lost his balance? Bradford’s tackles have perfected that technique, they got away with it all game.

That really depends on where on the jersey that the Offensive Lineman pulled the Defensive Lineman down from. 

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10 hours ago, Perspective said:

Ray, I'll take it one step further . . . there needs to be a certain amount of consistency game in and game out, regardless of which crew shows up.   I know there will always be a certain amount of discretion and everyone's judgment is slightly different from everyone else's.  But at least 90% of the calls (and the no-calls) should be the same week in and week out. 

Consistency is not as important as being correct by the intent of the rule. 

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9 hours ago, Jambun82 said:

That really depends on where on the jersey that the Offensive Lineman pulled the Defensive Lineman down from. 

Jambun, please elaborate.   I'm not quibbling; just trying to learn something.   Are there really certain parts of a defensive player's jersey that, by rule, the offensive player is allowed to grab hold of, hang on to, and literally pull the defensive player to the ground with???  

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On 11/21/2021 at 9:24 AM, 561_Fan said:

The QB is still in the pocket…the DL and OL are engaged (think of a bull rush) and the OL pulls the defender down (by his jersey and he falls face first). Is that holding? Or is that a good technique, that makes the DL look as if he lost his balance? Bradford’s tackles have perfected that technique, they got away with it all game.

This is holding and will be called consistently at the college and NFL level.  However, at the HS level, dont expect it to be called.  There are 3 or 4 less officials on the field than college/NFL so they look for more obvious things like a jersey that is being pulled.  Without a dedicated referee to watch the lineman, the pulldown will hardly ever get called if done in a way that doesnt have the jersey extended.  It sounds like this might have been exploited and taught by the Bradford coach.  It is then up to the other coach to point this out to the refs so they look for it and call it.  Some refs, not surprisingly, are less familiar with the rules since there is a ref shortage and many are inexperienced.  You just have to adjust, honestly.  If they pull down then there are techniques to keep their hands off of you and make them pay for poor technique themselves.  

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12 hours ago, Jambun82 said:

That really depends on where on the jersey that the Offensive Lineman pulled the Defensive Lineman down from. 

That's why I described it as teaching a "Technique", but you and I both know pulling or tackling someone no matter where on the jersey they are grabbing is holding, period.  This is the exact situation I described in the loss Apopka suffered at Lakeland.  The OL just grabbed him by the numbers and slung the Apopka DL to the ground then pounced on him; it his attempt to get the guy off he pushed him and they flagged the OL for unsportsmanlike conduct.  Stupid.

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3 hours ago, Perspective said:

Jambun, please elaborate.   I'm not quibbling; just trying to learn something.   Are there really certain parts of a defensive player's jersey that, by rule, the offensive player is allowed to grab hold of, hang on to, and literally pull the defensive player to the ground with???  

Basically, tackling someone from the chest???  Hell, let them go for the knees.

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My son plays DE, so naturally I watch the line of scrimmage play most often.  Holding happens a lot more than it is actually flagged (no surprise).  Most refs will not call it unless it is at the point of attack usually.  My son used to get mad about it, but he has learned that it is what it is and just play through it.  He had a guy pretty much get him in a head lock while chasing the qb right in front of the white hat.  He asks the white hat if he saw that after the play was over, he responded "just play football".  

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38 minutes ago, 120North said:

My son plays DE, so naturally I watch the line of scrimmage play most often.  Holding happens a lot more than it is actually flagged (no surprise).  Most refs will not call it unless it is at the point of attack usually.  My son used to get mad about it, but he has learned that it is what it is and just play through it.  He had a guy pretty much get him in a head lock while chasing the qb right in front of the white hat.  He asks the white hat if he saw that after the play was over, he responded "just play football".  

Literally happens every play.  I am a big fan of a DT on our team that is virtually unblockable and therefore focus on him when we are on defense; what they get away with is unbelievable and he has had to learn to get beyond it as you say "Just Play Football".

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1 hour ago, Cat_Scratch said:

In defense of the refs, you can't see every foul but a ref should be alert to a coach letting you know a player is repeatedly holding. 

I had an umpire kick me out of a game for telling him "thank you" after he made a bad call. He said I was harassing him. Some officials are just bad.

Any chance you may have said that "thank you" just a tad bit sarcastically?   :P

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14 hours ago, Perspective said:

Jambun, please elaborate.   I'm not quibbling; just trying to learn something.   Are there really certain parts of a defensive player's jersey that, by rule, the offensive player is allowed to grab hold of, hang on to, and literally pull the defensive player to the ground with???  

By the letter of the law, what was described is holding. If the QB is in the pocket while this occurs, there should be a holding foul. It would be helpful to see a video of the technique though. 

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10 hours ago, Ray Icaza said:

That's why I described it as teaching a "Technique", but you and I both know pulling or tackling someone no matter where on the jersey they are grabbing is holding, period.  This is the exact situation I described in the loss Apopka suffered at Lakeland.  The OL just grabbed him by the numbers and slung the Apopka DL to the ground then pounced on him; it his attempt to get the guy off he pushed him and they flagged the OL for unsportsmanlike conduct.  Stupid.

If there was physical contact between two players, the foul should have been a personal foul, not unsportsmanlike conduct. Where was the football in relation to this action that you have described? 

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