Disappointing 2022 teams

[Ray Icaza]

1 hour ago, HornetFan said:

Toho HS is only about 5 years old and up until this season, their football team has not been competitive against established teams. They hired a new coach and found a freshman QB that has potential. The early half of their schedule was against extremely weak teams and they ran up the scores, while bragging that their QB was the "next coming". They finally started playing teams that were capable of winning at the varsity level and Toho and their QB are failing miserably. One can only imagine what Osceola will put up on the scoreboard against Toho in their next game. Hard to feel sorry for Toho after they ran up scores in their first five games.

Actually Toho as a brand new school a few years back made tremendous strides in the first couple of years with former OHS alum and former Georgia football player Marc Deas as the HC.  I think it was only their third season and they not only made it into the playoffs but actually won the first round.  Since his departure they have struggled.   By the way, with 80% of the season complete it looks like Zay is more than a complimentary piece.  He appears to lead in yards, receptions, TD's and does good work on special teams for your WP Wildcats.  Rumor is he may return at midterm to finish out his baseball career at OHS; have not been able to confirm. 

[KeemD321]

3 hours ago, Ray Icaza said:

Actually Toho as a brand new school a few years back made tremendous strides in the first couple of years with former OHS alum and former Georgia football player Marc Deas as the HC.  I think it was only their third season and they not only made it into the playoffs but actually won the first round.  Since his departure they have struggled.   By the way, with 80% of the season complete it looks like Zay is more than a complimentary piece.  He appears to lead in yards, receptions, TD's and does good work on special teams for your WP Wildcats.  Rumor is he may return at midterm to finish out his baseball career at OHS; have not been able to confirm. 

They also had Viera's Kevin May as the AD for a couple years til he took the Baker County job

[Ray Icaza]

10 minutes ago, KeemD321 said:

They also had Viera's Kevin May as the AD for a couple years til he took the Baker County job

If that was the Viera HC prior to taking the AD job at Toho you are correct and they had the program on a real upward projection.   Losing him and Coach Deas (with a promised HC job at Feltrim Academy) kids started leaving. 

[KeemD321]

5 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:

If that was the Viera HC prior to taking the AD job at Toho you are correct and they had the program on a real upward projection.   Losing him and Coach Deas (with a promised HC job at Feltrim Academy) kids started leaving. 

They definitely had my respect and were making the right moves. Felt like they were going on the same upward trend Viera went through with Kevin Mays as HC

[HornetFan]

On 10/26/2022 at 11:21 AM, nolebull813 said:

I didn’t see any scores that were ran up 

When you leave your starters in, especially the QB, and you're winning by scores like 49-0, 48-0, 47-6, 46-7, and 53-14, and your QB is still throwing late in the game, that's running up the score. Most coaches when faced with obvious mismatches and lopsided scores, will not keep their starters in after getting up by 4 or 5 TD's, unless they are trying to pad their stats.

[HornetFan]

On 10/26/2022 at 11:22 AM, Ray Icaza said:

Actually Toho as a brand new school a few years back made tremendous strides in the first couple of years with former OHS alum and former Georgia football player Marc Deas as the HC.  I think it was only their third season and they not only made it into the playoffs but actually won the first round.  Since his departure they have struggled.   By the way, with 80% of the season complete it looks like Zay is more than a complimentary piece.  He appears to lead in yards, receptions, TD's and does good work on special teams for your WP Wildcats.  Rumor is he may return at midterm to finish out his baseball career at OHS; have not been able to confirm. 

Zay has been a welcome addition and a tremendous asset on the Winter Park Wildcats. He is their leading receiver, has great hands and very good speed and is a deep threat. He's also very good after the catch. All that, and he's a great kid. He's far from a "complementary piece, and upon arrival at WP, he quickly became one of Aidan Warner's favorite go-to targets. 

[gatorman-uf]

On 10/25/2022 at 1:55 PM, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

You don't hate the current system because it's not working, you just hate it because you are so anti progressive that you would rather see the status quo that had postseason blowouts getting worse by the year to stick around just because no change and failure is more appealing to you than new changes to succeed

I hate the current system because it doesn't solve the problem that you keep rambling about (recruiting). Recruiting can't be stopped because our legislature has neutered the FHSAA, but you think that by putting these teams in these metro/suburban classifications that somehow recruiting will be stopped, it hasn't.

As I have said for over 10 years, teams need to play teams of similar historical abilities. (Promotion/Relegation). If a good suburban team is able to climb to the highest level, great. Can they maintain that level, year in and year without a down year, maybe, but probably not, which is the beauty of promotion/relegation.  

You also keep moving the goal posts. Your original complaint about classifications was when teams like Eastside/Fort White win 1 district game and get into the playoffs (in a 3-team district). If the Tampa district had 7-8 teams in a district, the champion and runner-up probably won 6-7 games regardless of the competition against similar area competition (which is the point of old and new classification system).  Just move along on this one. 

[gatorman-uf]

On 10/25/2022 at 7:32 PM, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

If they ever move football back to only district games having importance than I will not even bother going to any non conference game ever again because it would be a waste of time and money to go watch a game that doesn't count for shit 

 

Every time you make this argument my hair falls out, because it just isn't true.
The reason why smaller # of classes, larger number of teams in a districts is better, because we then know the best teams are making the playoffs. We know this because they physical beat those other teams. You already called out the MaxPreps system for ranking a team below a team it just beat.
The non-district schedule only becomes more important as we reduce the size of districts to 3-5 teams. There is NOBODY who argues for small districts. We recognize that the FHSAA should shrink the # of classes and thus increase the # of teams in the districts. If every district was 8 teams and you played 7 district games, then we know you are the best team in that area of that size. I don't care if every team in that district was poop, you beat teams of your size and your locality.  
 

Imagine if Columbia Volleyball (which had a decent W-L for them) made the playoffs with the strength of schedule they had this year. I don't think they played a single team in their district, and if they had snuck in because they won against lots of 1A teams, you should be insulted. District games should matter because those are the teams we are saying you are similar in terms of competitiveness (based on the FHSAA definition of competitiveness(not mine)).

Not once have you ever explained how the old champ/runner-up system discouraged teams from playing quality match-ups. Nothing stops teams from playing Bolles or Trinity Christian in the old system, because everyone understood a loss to a team didn't end your playoff hopes. Now, if you play Bolles and lose, it actually hurts your chances of making the playoffs. So why play them? If Columbia played Bolles in the old system and lost, then it has no effect on their ability to make the playoffs (as it shouldn't considering Bolles is not in their district or classification).

Your system discourages rivalry games like Suwannee/Columbia or Palatka/St.Augustine because if a rival is constantly losing then it hurts their chances of making the playoffs. 

This is why a promotion/relegation system WITH large districts is the answer. It means the districts are competitive, it means you can schedule a couple of out of district games and not worry about making the playoffs because of them. It means as you lose competitiveness, you drop down to face teams you might be more competitive against or the opposite, you move up a classification, because you are dominating.  

[DisabledAccount]

49 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

Every time you make this argument my hair falls out, because it just isn't true.
The reason why smaller # of classes, larger number of teams in a districts is better, because we then know the best teams are making the playoffs. We know this because they physical beat those other teams. You already called out the MaxPreps system for ranking a team below a team it just beat.
The non-district schedule only becomes more important as we reduce the size of districts to 3-5 teams. There is NOBODY who argues for small districts. We recognize that the FHSAA should shrink the # of classes and thus increase the # of teams in the districts. If every district was 8 teams and you played 7 district games, then we know you are the best team in that area of that size. I don't care if every team in that district was poop, you beat teams of your size and your locality.  
 

Imagine if Columbia Volleyball (which had a decent W-L for them) made the playoffs with the strength of schedule they had this year. I don't think they played a single team in their district, and if they had snuck in because they won against lots of 1A teams, you should be insulted. District games should matter because those are the teams we are saying you are similar in terms of competitiveness (based on the FHSAA definition of competitiveness(not mine)).

Not once have you ever explained how the old champ/runner-up system discouraged teams from playing quality match-ups. Nothing stops teams from playing Bolles or Trinity Christian in the old system, because everyone understood a loss to a team didn't end your playoff hopes. Now, if you play Bolles and lose, it actually hurts your chances of making the playoffs. So why play them? If Columbia played Bolles in the old system and lost, then it has no effect on their ability to make the playoffs (as it shouldn't considering Bolles is not in their district or classification).

Your system discourages rivalry games like Suwannee/Columbia or Palatka/St.Augustine because if a rival is constantly losing then it hurts their chances of making the playoffs. 

This is why a promotion/relegation system WITH large districts is the answer. It means the districts are competitive, it means you can schedule a couple of out of district games and not worry about making the playoffs because of them. It means as you lose competitiveness, you drop down to face teams you might be more competitive against or the opposite, you move up a classification, because you are dominating.  

Columbia isn't gonna run from playing Bolles in previous or current system 

 

That's what makes us different than Suwannee and if the game has no impact on the postseason that means we gain nothing by beating teams but some team playing all pushovers gets the same credit for winning district and could host us in the playoffs even if we go and beat Bolles and TCA so why is that a BENEFIT

 

I don't give a damn about Columbia beating up on the garbage clay and Duval teams that are only good when they get 20 transfers and those matchups are always snooze fests to watch 

 

I rather play top teams and have high risk high reward rather than say "well you beat a state champ but it's just a non conference game so you still gotta earn your spot in the playoffs by beating 2-8 Orange Park" 

 

Yeah I really have interest in watching an ex power that can't keep up, NOT

[DisabledAccount]

Columbia volleyball definitely had a good season but it wasn't enough to make playoffs because they lost several games that could have gotten them in as a wild card and I accept that 

 

I still like seeing them above .500 and going an upwards direction

[DisabledAccount]

56 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

Every time you make this argument my hair falls out, because it just isn't true.
The reason why smaller # of classes, larger number of teams in a districts is better, because we then know the best teams are making the playoffs. We know this because they physical beat those other teams. You already called out the MaxPreps system for ranking a team below a team it just beat.
The non-district schedule only becomes more important as we reduce the size of districts to 3-5 teams. There is NOBODY who argues for small districts. We recognize that the FHSAA should shrink the # of classes and thus increase the # of teams in the districts. If every district was 8 teams and you played 7 district games, then we know you are the best team in that area of that size. I don't care if every team in that district was poop, you beat teams of your size and your locality.  
 

Imagine if Columbia Volleyball (which had a decent W-L for them) made the playoffs with the strength of schedule they had this year. I don't think they played a single team in their district, and if they had snuck in because they won against lots of 1A teams, you should be insulted. District games should matter because those are the teams we are saying you are similar in terms of competitiveness (based on the FHSAA definition of competitiveness(not mine)).

Not once have you ever explained how the old champ/runner-up system discouraged teams from playing quality match-ups. Nothing stops teams from playing Bolles or Trinity Christian in the old system, because everyone understood a loss to a team didn't end your playoff hopes. Now, if you play Bolles and lose, it actually hurts your chances of making the playoffs. So why play them? If Columbia played Bolles in the old system and lost, then it has no effect on their ability to make the playoffs (as it shouldn't considering Bolles is not in their district or classification).

Your system discourages rivalry games like Suwannee/Columbia or Palatka/St.Augustine because if a rival is constantly losing then it hurts their chances of making the playoffs. 

This is why a promotion/relegation system WITH large districts is the answer. It means the districts are competitive, it means you can schedule a couple of out of district games and not worry about making the playoffs because of them. It means as you lose competitiveness, you drop down to face teams you might be more competitive against or the opposite, you move up a classification, because you are dominating.  

I didn't say it discouraged games from happening

 

I said that it makes the games COMPLETELY WORTHLESS

 

If beating Ridgeview means more about getting a home game than beating TCA than the system is COMPLETE SHIT 

 

District games should matter but I will never support a system that makes the non conference games have NO impact on the playoffs like before where we could beat state ranked teams but still travel to a shit 4-6 Lincoln team we already beat just because "their district was on the host side that season" 

 

Screw that shit and I hope it stays buried forever

[Big Ray]

Nease and it isn't even close. They were a 9-4 playoff team in 2021, but are 1-8 so far this season with a 4 star QB! Tim Tebow must be like, "What in the hell is going on over there"!

[PinellasFB]

On 10/28/2022 at 2:18 PM, gatorman-uf said:

I hate the current system because it doesn't solve the problem that you keep rambling about (recruiting). Recruiting can't be stopped because our legislature has neutered the FHSAA, but you think that by putting these teams in these metro/suburban classifications that somehow recruiting will be stopped, it hasn't.

As I have said for over 10 years, teams need to play teams of similar historical abilities. (Promotion/Relegation). If a good suburban team is able to climb to the highest level, great. Can they maintain that level, year in and year without a down year, maybe, but probably not, which is the beauty of promotion/relegation.  

You also keep moving the goal posts. Your original complaint about classifications was when teams like Eastside/Fort White win 1 district game and get into the playoffs (in a 3-team district). If the Tampa district had 7-8 teams in a district, the champion and runner-up probably won 6-7 games regardless of the competition against similar area competition (which is the point of old and new classification system).  Just move along on this one. 

Promotion/relegation will only make the transfer issue worse.  The rich will get richer because they are now in the "premier league" while the poor stay poor because their players will want to be in the premier league and transfer at any opportunity.  There will then be a glass ceiling that no non-premier teams can break through because you cant beat great players without great players.  You can dream all you want that a great coach can scheme those bad athletes into beating those star-rated players but that is just a pipe dream.

[Beek]

If there was a system that moved up the best teams to the next higher class and moved down the worst teams to the next lower class. This would/could promote parity among teams in the playoff structure. You must understand where I am coming from with this. I coach a perennially worst team when it comes to playoffs. Having said that I do see both sides of the coin. We are a 8a /4s school based on student body. Which is how schools are classified in Florida. Is this system fair to all? Absolutely no! But can there be a system that is fair to all? Absolutely no! So how can this be fixed?

1. There could be a system that actually looks at demographics and school history and ability which places schools in districts where they could be competitive. (what i mean is mainstream, shouldn't move a school down if they would be a upper tier school in that classification, nor should they be moved up if they would be a lower tier team) Adjustments could be made looking at subsequent performance.

2. We could move teams up or down a class based on the previous X number of years performance. throwing out one good and one bad year to keep things stable in the calculations. (does this just promote mediocre performance?)

3. keep things as they are, but allow sub par teams to form their own particular bowl game structure (Not playoff) Giving those schools the ability to play for something that is tangible for the teams who cannot compete in the FHSAA playoff structure.

4. Stop school of choice for athletics (require any player who transfers from one school to another without a verified physical move, sit out a year.) This fulfills the states initiative for school of choice but doesn't allow it to promote athletic recruiting. 

The overall answer shouldn't be a way to water down who is the best! It shouldn't be give a trophy to everyone who participates. It shouldn't be a way to hand out championship trophies! 

These are just some possibilities. All, I am sure have been mentioned before. Coaches will coach, players will play, alumni and parents will continue to complain. Is there a fix?  Does it need a fix?  This is just some food for thought. 

 

 

[gatorman-uf]

59 minutes ago, PinellasFB said:

Promotion/relegation will only make the transfer issue worse.  The rich will get richer because they are now in the "premier league" while the poor stay poor because their players will want to be in the premier league and transfer at any opportunity.  There will then be a glass ceiling that no non-premier teams can break through because you cant beat great players without great players.  You can dream all you want that a great coach can scheme those bad athletes into beating those star-rated players but that is just a pipe dream.

I understand your POV, but recruiting/transfers aren't going to stop until the state legislature bugs off. Additionally, we have an entire generation of parents/students who all they know is transferring. Transferring isn't going away because no school districts, state organizations, or politicians truly wants to stop it. 

I don't necessarily think it will make it worse. Kids are already transferring to the school to pursue state championships. What it does allow is teams who either lose transfers or don't get transfers to play similar type teams instead of putting teams getting transfers in the same classification as the ones losing them.

[gatorman-uf]

15 minutes ago, Beek said:

If there was a system that moved up the best teams to the next higher class and moved down the worst teams to the next lower class. This would/could promote parity among teams in the playoff structure. You must understand where I am coming from with this. I coach a perennially worst team when it comes to playoffs. Having said that I do see both sides of the coin. We are a 8a /4s school based on student body. Which is how schools are classified in Florida. Is this system fair to all? Absolutely no! But can there be a system that is fair to all? Absolutely no! So how can this be fixed?

1. There could be a system that actually looks at demographics and school history and ability which places schools in districts where they could be competitive. (what i mean is mainstream, shouldn't move a school down if they would be a upper tier school in that classification, nor should they be moved up if they would be a lower tier team) Adjustments could be made looking at subsequent performance.

2. We could move teams up or down a class based on the previous X number of years performance. throwing out one good and one bad year to keep things stable in the calculations. (does this just promote mediocre performance?)

3. keep things as they are, but allow sub par teams to form their own particular bowl game structure (Not playoff) Giving those schools the ability to play for something that is tangible for the teams who cannot compete in the FHSAA playoff structure.

4. Stop school of choice for athletics (require any player who transfers from one school to another without a verified physical move, sit out a year.) This fulfills the states initiative for school of choice but doesn't allow it to promote athletic recruiting. 

The overall answer shouldn't be a way to water down who is the best! It shouldn't be give a trophy to everyone who participates. It shouldn't be a way to hand out championship trophies! 

These are just some possibilities. All, I am sure have been mentioned before. Coaches will coach, players will play, alumni and parents will continue to complain. Is there a fix?  Does it need a fix?  This is just some food for thought. 

1 and 2 combined: My promotion/relegation system would be based on the average of the MaxPreps ranking over the previous 4 years, so that one good year or bad year doesn't bump you up or down, but sustained success/failure does. The number of teams moving up or down would be limited to about 10-20% of the teams in a classification. My system has fewer teams on the "elite" class and more teams in the "below average" class.

3. This is actually what several "critics" of the promotion/relegation would suggest for my lower level teams, since they do not want to have the title of "state champ". Get the FHSAA out of the way, allow schools to form their own conferences that play 8-9 games, with 2-3 rounds of playoffs (ending with a championship game the same week as Regional Quarterfinals).

4. Never going to happen. The argument that the state legislature made is that if a kid is allowed to transfer to be in the best band, welding, nursing, or academic program, why should we limit their ability to transfer for athletics.

You are right, I know I care way to much about this system. If I was a billionaire, I would do this as a vanity project, but the reality is every likes complaining, but nobody want to actual fix it, because then they would have nothing to complain about.

[Beek]

40 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

1 and 2 combined: My promotion/relegation system would be based on the average of the MaxPreps ranking over the previous 4 years, so that one good year or bad year doesn't bump you up or down, but sustained success/failure does. The number of teams moving up or down would be limited to about 10-20% of the teams in a classification. My system has fewer teams on the "elite" class and more teams in the "below average" class.

3. This is actually what several "critics" of the promotion/relegation would suggest for my lower level teams, since they do not want to have the title of "state champ". Get the FHSAA out of the way, allow schools to form their own conferences that play 8-9 games, with 2-3 rounds of playoffs (ending with a championship game the same week as Regional Quarterfinals).

4. Never going to happen. The argument that the state legislature made is that if a kid is allowed to transfer to be in the best band, welding, nursing, or academic program, why should we limit their ability to transfer for athletics.

You are right, I know I care way to much about this system. If I was a billionaire, I would do this as a vanity project, but the reality is every likes complaining, but nobody want to actual fix it, because then they would have nothing to complain about.

As much as I would like too see a option 1 or 2. is this truly a representation on where the best team is? Do we let it play out into January to a overall no class designation state champion?

[Beek]

1 hour ago, gatorman-uf said:

4. Never going to happen. The argument that the state legislature made is that if a kid is allowed to transfer to be in the best band, welding, nursing, or academic program, why should we limit their ability to transfer for athletic

only band and athletics are competitive. Shouldn't the waiver be based on academics (which is the preface of the law) instead of competition?

[nolebull813]

On 10/27/2022 at 3:00 PM, HornetFan said:

When you leave your starters in, especially the QB, and you're winning by scores like 49-0, 48-0, 47-6, 46-7, and 53-14, and your QB is still throwing late in the game, that's running up the score. Most coaches when faced with obvious mismatches and lopsided scores, will not keep their starters in after getting up by 4 or 5 TD's, unless they are trying to pad their stats.

My bad I need to clarify. If you are losing that bad to ToHo, you have no business playing varsity football. Teams as bad as ToHo can’t run the score up. They are just playing their game and can’t help the other teams aren’t playing varsity football. 

[Nulli Secundus]

4 hours ago, Beek said:

only band and athletics are competitive. Shouldn't the waiver be based on academics (which is the preface of the law) instead of competition?

A certain g.p.a. must be maintained to remain academically eligible for athletics.  One could argue based on that preface alone that athletic participation (albeit extra-curricular in nature) is not possible without the sufficient grades.  In other words, everyone is a student but to be a student athlete certain minimum requirements have to be met.  No matter the activity, the academic element will always be there.  Don't be fooled. School by nature is competitive:

• Who gets the best grades?
• Who can get the most scholarships?
• What school has the best choice programs to snatch academic talent?

That translates into better test scores which will in turn funnel additional dollars to higher performing institutions and penalize lower performing schools.  Until all schools are "academically" created equal, there will always be a reason to transfer for academic reasons whether it involves a student athlete or not. Certainly a case for the courts, lol.

[nolebull813]

Sunlake has gotta be one the most disappointing teams this year and not just from a W/L standpoint from year to year. 
 

In the off-season they took coaches and players from Land O Lakes High. LOL was an independent and went 9-1 but the record is deceiving. They played the worst of the worst. I believe their opponents had the worst combined record of any Pasco County team and that’s saying something. 
 

With a new coach, and all the locker room cancers gone, LOL is thriving at soon to be 9-1 with a light years better schedule including beating Mitchell who was the top dog in the county for the last decade. 
 

Meanwhile, Sunlake is about to limp to an embarrassing 1-9 record with all the players and coaches who jumped ship. The grass ain’t always greener. 
 

It’s like leaving a good girl for some pretty face only to find out it was caked on makeup and she’s a psychopath. Lol. 
 

Long story short. Sunlake is a disappointment