Everything comes around

[FSULOVER]

Thought some of yall might find this interesting.  Records of some teams from 1989.  Everyone today so worried about equity.  Used to have to pay your dues and accept your program might be down years at a time.  Now people jumping off the cliff wanting to "fix" the playoff system to make things fair if things not going there way.  There was a time when metro schools and privates did not dominate but they didnt bitch.

 

Armwood   0-10

Clearwater Central Catholic   2-8

Cocoa   2-8

Jesuit    4-6

Lake Wales   4-6

Mainland   0-10

Miami Central    4-6

Miami Norland   2-8

Miami Northwestern   4-6

Naples   1-8

St Thomas   4-6

[PinellasFB]

This is almost 40 years ago.  Things were so vastly different back then.  The private schools had not yet invested into athletics (for the most part) to enhance their school's profile so most of their players were rich white kids.  I remember playing against Bishop Verot and Cardinal Mooney back then and laughing at these kids trying to catch our speedy skill players.  The public schools had strict transfer rules so they were at the mercy of whichever group of kids were moving through their system at any given four-year interval.  That's why schools would rise and fall a few times per decade.  The traditional public powers were a little more resistant to the down periods because they tended to be in a talent rich areas but even they would miss the playoffs some years.

Fast forward to today and the only time you see a public power down is if they had forfeits or suffered from a mass transfer exodus out (see Lakewood this year... live by the sword, die by the sword).  The privates never have down years and load up on kids who probably wouldn't be attending their schools without a free ride.  Non-powers develop kids only to see them get stolen once they are productive, repeating their cycle of staying down and the powers staying up. 

[Ray Icaza]

11 minutes ago, PinellasFB said:

This is almost 40 years ago.  Things were so vastly different back then.  The private schools had not yet invested into athletics (for the most part) to enhance their school's profile so most of their players were rich white kids.  I remember playing against Bishop Verot and Cardinal Mooney back then and laughing at these kids trying to catch our speedy skill players.  The public schools had strict transfer rules so they were at the mercy of whichever group of kids were moving through their system at any given four-year interval.  That's why schools would rise and fall a few times per decade.  The traditional public powers were a little more resistant to the down periods because they tended to be in a talent rich areas but even they would miss the playoffs some years.

Fast forward to today and the only time you see a public power down is if they had forfeits or suffered from a mass transfer exodus out (see Lakewood this year... live by the sword, die by the sword).  The privates never have down years and load up on kids who probably wouldn't be attending their schools without a free ride.  Non-powers develop kids only to see them get stolen once they are productive, repeating their cycle of staying down and the powers staying up. 

Privates never bitched, just said "Let's Get Even" and started recruiting.  This whole narrative is laughable as back in that era those same schools a year or two prior or after could have had completely different (winning) records.  The last 20 years have been a complete takeover of the haves and have nots with little to zero variation.  Who you fooling??

[FSULOVER]

Back then you would have been laughed at suggesting Miami Central and Chaminade would EVER be amongst the best in the nation.  They were below average to terrible in the 80's and 90's.  Many of the programs above were bad for LONG periods of time. 

We talk about haves and have nots, but STA and Lakeland are the ONLY programs over the past 20 years that have consistently had very strong teams year in and out.

Some of these teams may be riding a crest now but could be doormats in 20 years.   Nade had a huge dropoff for about 10 years and it could happen again very quickly. 

Yes it is VERY different today.  But the scene today has not made it any easier for the rich to stay in power.  If anything it is easier for a great program to completely collapse.  The rich might be rich today but I would bet on ANY of the rich teams today being in that same position 20 years from now except for STA.   

[DarterBlue2]

2 minutes ago, FSULOVER said:

Back then you would have been laughed at suggesting Miami Central and Chaminade would EVER be amongst the best in the nation.  They were below average to terrible in the 80's and 90's.  Many of the programs above were bad for LONG periods of time. 

We talk about haves and have nots, but STA and Lakeland are the ONLY programs over the past 20 years that have consistently had very strong teams year in and out.

Some of these teams may be riding a crest now but could be doormats in 20 years.   Nade had a huge dropoff for about 10 years and it could happen again very quickly. 

Yes it is VERY different today.  But the scene today has not made it any easier for the rich to stay in power.  If anything it is easier for a great program to completely collapse.  The rich might be rich today but I would bet on ANY of the rich teams today being in that same position 20 years from now except for STA.   

That is true to a degree. For most of the rich depend on transfers to maintain their status. That requires either monetary reward such as a scholarship in the case of the privates, or convincing kids in an area that school X is the place to be. Apopka, Osceola and Mainland all in Central to East Central Florida, have, to a degree, maintained strong programs without overly depending on transfers over the past 20+ years. Cocoa, despite a couple down years, has done pretty much the same. But they have been able to do this, by having great talent based in their schools boundaries, and by convincing the kids that they should stay home.

In the case of Apopka, this is bolstered by the fact that a good amount of our talent comes from Plymouth and Zellwood, which are both in the rural part of Orange County and which would make it very difficult for them to commute to any of the other better area programs unless mommy or daddy had the money to buy them reliable transportation, which they would not as these are poor sections of Apopka.  

[Ray Icaza]

54 minutes ago, FSULOVER said:

Back then you would have been laughed at suggesting Miami Central and Chaminade would EVER be amongst the best in the nation.  They were below average to terrible in the 80's and 90's.  Many of the programs above were bad for LONG periods of time. 

We talk about haves and have nots, but STA and Lakeland are the ONLY programs over the past 20 years that have consistently had very strong teams year in and out.

Some of these teams may be riding a crest now but could be doormats in 20 years.   Nade had a huge dropoff for about 10 years and it could happen again very quickly. 

Yes it is VERY different today.  But the scene today has not made it any easier for the rich to stay in power.  If anything it is easier for a great program to completely collapse.  The rich might be rich today but I would bet on ANY of the rich teams today being in that same position 20 years from now except for STA.   

You are partially correct that some powers today may not be tomorrow or vice versa but missed my entire point.  PRIVATES MY FRIEND!!  For 20 years or more the Bolles School, TCA, University School in south FL and today AHP, CMD, Tampa Jesuit, Cardinal Gibbons, especially STA, etc... have cleaned up on state titles.  I'm sure I have left some out so forgive me for that. 

[FSULOVER]

28 minutes ago, DarterBlue2 said:

That is true to a degree. For most of the rich depend on transfers to maintain their status. That requires either monetary reward such as a scholarship in the case of the privates, or convincing kids in an area that school X is the place to be. Apopka, Osceola and Mainland all in Central to East Central Florida, have, to a degree, maintained strong programs without overly depending on transfers over the past 20+ years. Cocoa, despite a couple down years, has done pretty much the same. But they have been able to do this, by having great talent based in their schools boundaries, and by convincing the kids that they should stay home.

In the case of Apopka, this is bolstered by the fact that a good amount of our talent comes from Plymouth and Zellwood, which are both in the rural part of Orange County and which would make it very difficult for them to commute to any of the other better area programs unless mommy or daddy had the money to buy them reliable transportation, which they would not as these are poor sections of Apopka.  

AHP, CM and Gibbons all have an achilles heel.  They are all to some extent like the U.  STA is like Ohio st.  The difference is fan/alumni support.  The U lost its swag because the average alumnus does not relate to the team.  Even when the U was winning championships they lacked it.  That is what made the program vulnerable.  Many alumni are very wealthy white and hispanic kids who have no interest in football and don't relate to inner city kids.   Unlike Northwestern alum who are diehard fans for life, I dont see a lot of kids from those 3 private schools being online wathching their school play 25 years from now.  And if their football programs collapse i doubt they will care and offer to write a check.  Unlike STA fans. 

 

[Ray Icaza]

50 minutes ago, DarterBlue2 said:

That is true to a degree. For most of the rich depend on transfers to maintain their status. That requires either monetary reward such as a scholarship in the case of the privates, or convincing kids in an area that school X is the place to be. Apopka, Osceola and Mainland all in Central to East Central Florida, have, to a degree, maintained strong programs without overly depending on transfers over the past 20+ years. Cocoa, despite a couple down years, has done pretty much the same. But they have been able to do this, by having great talent based in their schools boundaries, and by convincing the kids that they should stay home.

In the case of Apopka, this is bolstered by the fact that a good amount of our talent comes from Plymouth and Zellwood, which are both in the rural part of Orange County and which would make it very difficult for them to commute to any of the other better area programs unless mommy or daddy had the money to buy them reliable transportation, which they would not as these are poor sections of Apopka.  

I tend to agree with you on most points, but doubt that Osceola year in and year out get the number and quality of transfers like Cocoa does.  Just look at one position for Cocoa the past few years as a clear example,  QB!   These kids that just "SHOW UP" were in their school boundaries?    Must be MAGIC.

[FSULOVER]

 

12 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:

You are partially correct that some powers today may not be tomorrow or vice versa but missed my entire point.  PRIVATES MY FRIEND!!  For 20 years or more the Bolles School, TCA, University School in south FL and today AHP, CMD, Tampa Jesuit, Cardinal Gibbons, especially STA, etc... have cleaned up on state titles.  I'm sure I have left some out so forgive me for that. 

A VERY small percentage of ALL private schools have dominated over the past twenty 20 years.  If not for Bolles, STA and AHP, we probably would not be having this discussion, because those are the schools that really held the publics back from winning championships.  And when you look at state final results over the years, public schools have done just fine when competing against the private schools.  Disproportionate YES .  A huge problem some make it out to be NO

[DarterBlue2]

18 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:

I tend to agree with you on most points, but doubt that Osceola year in and year out get the number and quality of transfers like Cocoa does.  Just look at one position for Cocoa the past few years as a clear example,  QB!   These kids that just "SHOW UP" were in their school boundaries?    Must be MAGIC.

Sure. Cocoa recruits, but the meat of their program is still based on homegrown kids. I kind of mentioned them as an afterthought, because of the fact that they do get a fair number of transfers at critical positions. 

[Cat_Scratch]

I have no idea where Brady came from, just glad we have him. He could well be home grown. 

I believe one of our development programs just won nationals. Meaning this next batch of players will be just as good in a few more years as this team is. 

You know the old saying "the Richer just get richer".

https://247sports.com/player/brady-hart-46141204/

[Cat_Scratch]

Ain't gonna lie, we do get transfers...

We also lose players to other schools. Can't keep the better baseball players or wrestlers, they transfer to other schools. 

[KeemD321]

6 hours ago, Cat_Scratch said:

I have no idea where Brady came from, just glad we have him. He could well be home grown. 

I believe one of our development programs just won nationals. Meaning this next batch of players will be just as good in a few more years as this team is. 

You know the old saying "the Richer just get richer".

https://247sports.com/player/brady-hart-46141204/

Brady came from Melbourne, Blake Boda from Daytona Seabreeze and Davin Wydner from Holy Trinity. So past 3 years were out of school zone. DJ Arroyo beforehand moved from Vero after his freshman year. So he moved into the school zone. Before DJ it was Bruce Judson who was home grown

[KeemD321]

The other QBs that transferred into Cocoa were actually still in Cocoa's school zone being that they lived in Sharpes and barely outside of the Zone being in Port St John

[FSULOVER]

22 hours ago, Ray Icaza said:

You are partially correct that some powers today may not be tomorrow or vice versa but missed my entire point.  PRIVATES MY FRIEND!!  For 20 years or more the Bolles School, TCA, University School in south FL and today AHP, CMD, Tampa Jesuit, Cardinal Gibbons, especially STA, etc... have cleaned up on state titles.  I'm sure I have left some out so forgive me for that. 

Private school records since 2005 showing that some publics have done just fine against the private powers

AHP v Central   0-3

Bolles v BTW   1-4

Bolles v Cocoa   1-3

ST v Lakeland   1-4

CG v Glades Central   0-6 

TC v Cocoa   0-2

[Ray Icaza]

51 minutes ago, FSULOVER said:

Private school records since 2005 showing that some publics have done just fine against the private powers

AHP v Central   0-3

Bolles v BTW   1-4

Bolles v Cocoa   1-3

ST v Lakeland   1-4

CG v Glades Central   0-6 

TC v Cocoa   0-2

Anyone can find outliers to prop up an argument.  What you can't deny is "PRIVATES" in metro areas winning about 80% of state titles for over a decade and it has only gotten worse.  That stat as opposed to yours tells it all.   Given publics probably outnumber privates 3 to 1, no they aren't doing fine. 

[FSULOVER]

51 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:

Anyone can find outliers to prop up an argument.  What you can't deny is "PRIVATES" in metro areas winning about 80% of state titles for over a decade and it has only gotten worse.  That stat as opposed to yours tells it all.   Given publics probably outnumber privates 3 to 1, no they aren't doing fine. 

you missed the point of this thread that everything comes around and everyone has their time in the sun.  ST got beat up by several different public schools 2000-2009 and won "only" two titles that decade.  They've had a great last 10 years.  But nothing stays the same.  a certain amount of privates will win titles because of the way the classes are structured.  outside the small classes ST and AHP are the only privates one could argue are dominating of late.  and if those two schools had to go through the dade powers every year in the playoffs they would have a LOT less titles.  they have benefited from favorable class structures.

whats funny is that for years privates made excuses that they could never beat the publics because they did not have black players.  only old folk remember the decades that privates like st and nade were routinely beaten by the publics in the playoffs. check your history.  back in the day when privates were getting beat they did not bitch that we need our own class so we can win a state title once in a while.  they took their beatings against the publics for many years in the playoffs.  it is their time in the sun now and i am confident that the juggernaut in broward will eventually break up one day.  we are already seeing bolles faltering of late.  

since 2010 privates are 24-9 vs publics in state finals.  st is 9-1 and ahp is 5-1.  back those out and privates have a 10-7 edge.  lets be real it is those two schools that cause the bulk of the upset over private schools of late.  of the other 10 wins, its cm, cg, university etc. we don't have a statewide public v private issue.  the upset is driven by privates in ONE county.   throw all of the other privates in the state together with the broward privates and it would be a joke.  there is an elephant in the room called broward county private schools and nobody knows how to address it. 

 

24-9

St 9-1

Ahp 5-1

[Cat_Scratch]

28 minutes ago, FSULOVER said:

you missed the point of this thread that everything comes around and everyone has their time in the sun.  ST got beat up by several different public schools 2000-2009 and won "only" two titles that decade.  They've had a great last 10 years.  But nothing stays the same.  a certain amount of privates will win titles because of the way the classes are structured.  outside the small classes ST and AHP are the only privates one could argue are dominating of late.  and if those two schools had to go through the dade powers every year in the playoffs they would have a LOT less titles.  they have benefited from favorable class structures.

whats funny is that for years privates made excuses that they could never beat the publics because they did not have black players.  only old folk remember the decades that privates like st and nade were routinely beaten by the publics in the playoffs. check your history.  back in the day when privates were getting beat they did not bitch that we need our own class so we can win a state title once in a while.  they took their beatings against the publics for many years in the playoffs.  it is their time in the sun now and i am confident that the juggernaut in broward will eventually break up one day.  we are already seeing bolles faltering of late.  

Probably didn't b**** because there was no high school football web sites back then. There was one back when you had to use a 2400 baud modem to connect to the internet. Had maybe 5 guys total that would login maybe once a week. That lasted about 6 months. Season ended and the site was dead. No bitchen though. 

[KeemD321]

10 hours ago, FSULOVER said:

Private school records since 2005 showing that some publics have done just fine against the private powers

AHP v Central   0-3

Bolles v BTW   1-4

Bolles v Cocoa   1-3

ST v Lakeland   1-4

CG v Glades Central   0-6 

TC v Cocoa   0-2

The first year Bolles and Cocoa played in the regular season they were both ranked number 1 in their respective classes 2A and 2B and they both won State titles that season as well. Helping Ray's case. Also the Seasons Cocoa beat TC one season it was a close game last minute score. And again they both were at or near the top of their classes and made deep runs or title runs. Those 2 seasons

[FSULOVER]

3 minutes ago, KeemD321 said:

The first year Bolles and Cocoa played in the regular season they were both ranked number 1 in their respective classes 2A and 2B and they both won State titles that season as well. Helping Ray's case. Also the Seasons Cocoa beat TC one season it was a close game last minute score. And again they both were at or near the top of their classes and made deep runs or title runs. Those 2 seasons

Sounds like Cocoa was lucky.  I'm sure they wouldn't stand a chance against a private like ST especially if they were playing at Piccolo.

[KeemD321]

9 minutes ago, FSULOVER said:

Sounds like Cocoa was lucky.  I'm sure they wouldn't stand a chance against a private like ST especially if they were playing at Piccolo.

I see what you did there. Cocoa is improved from last season and STA isn't as dominate as they were last season which shows in the difference between this season and last season's games between Cocoa and STA

[Hwy17]

On 10/7/2023 at 9:08 AM, FSULOVER said:

Thought some of yall might find this interesting.  Records of some teams from 1989.  Everyone today so worried about equity.  Used to have to pay your dues and accept your program might be down years at a time.  Now people jumping off the cliff wanting to "fix" the playoff system to make things fair if things not going there way.  There was a time when metro schools and privates did not dominate but they didnt bitch.

 

Armwood   0-10

Clearwater Central Catholic   2-8

Cocoa   2-8

Jesuit    4-6

Lake Wales   4-6

Mainland   0-10

Miami Central    4-6

Miami Norland   2-8

Miami Northwestern   4-6

Naples   1-8

St Thomas   4-6

I was in 10th grade in 1989 and remember that season like it was yesterday.  This was our district and records - 8 team district and only the district champ got to go to the playoffs.  We had a 4 way tie that was determined by Kansas City tiebreaker. 

Hardee 8-2

Desoto 8-2

Okeechobee 8-2

Avon Park 7-3

Sebring 6-4

Lake Wales 4-6

Haines City 2-8

Mulberry 1-9

Avon Park ended up winning the tiebreaker. 

 

 

 

 

[nolebull813]

41 minutes ago, Hwy17 said:

I was in 10th grade in 1989 and remember that season like it was yesterday.  This was our district and records - 8 team district and only the district champ got to go to the playoffs.  We had a 4 way tie that was determined by Kansas City tiebreaker. 

Hardee 8-2

Desoto 8-2

Okeechobee 8-2

Avon Park 7-3

Sebring 6-4

Lake Wales 4-6

Haines City 2-8

Mulberry 1-9

Avon Park ended up winning the tiebreaker. 

 

 

 

 

That’s how it should be now. 

[Hwy17]

2 hours ago, nolebull813 said:

That’s how it should be now. 

What part? Larger districts or only district champion gets in the playoffs? 

Playoffs were only 3 rounds. The main reason for expanding the playoffs was because a lot of really good teams were left out so district runner-ups got added in the early 90s.  There is  certain rival of ours that hates being reminded of the 1988 season. 

[nolebull813]

35 minutes ago, Hwy17 said:

What part? Larger districts or only district champion gets in the playoffs? 

Playoffs were only 3 rounds. The main reason for expanding the playoffs was because a lot of really good teams were left out so district runner-ups got added in the early 90s.  There is  certain rival of ours that hates being reminded of the 1988 season. 

BOTH!!!!