Any interesting district races going on?

[PinellasFB]

We have an interesting scenario going on in 4M-6 where Steinbrenner, East Lake and Palm Harbor U. are all tied at 2-1 and 1-1 vs each other.  They are going to the final tie breaker which is playoff ranking.  ELHS and PHU both have cupcakes for their final game while Steinbrenner has a playoff contender in 7-2 Riverview for it's final game.  This will be a wild last week of football for these teams.

[181pl]

13 minutes ago, PinellasFB said:

We have an interesting scenario going on in 4M-6 where Steinbrenner, East Lake and Palm Harbor U. are all tied at 2-1 and 1-1 vs each other.  They are going to the final tie breaker which is playoff ranking.  ELHS and PHU both have cupcakes for their final game while Steinbrenner has a playoff contender in 7-2 Riverview for it's final game.  This will be a wild last week of football for these teams.

this is the problem with all the BS voodoo rankings. It’s all nonsense. If you had a large enough district, these teams would not be tied. If you have a minimum 6 team district you can comfortably have your top two teams make the playoffs and keep the competition relatively good in the playoff system. Preferably a seven or eight team district is better but I think six at a minimum lets  the cream rise to the top..

 

I don’t have an answer to your question because of the subjective system set up by the FHSAA

[Perspective]

47 minutes ago, 181pl said:

this is the problem with all the BS voodoo rankings. It’s all nonsense. If you had a large enough district, these teams would not be tied. If you have a minimum 6 team district you can comfortably have your top two teams make the playoffs and keep the competition relatively good in the playoff system. Preferably a seven or eight team district is better but I think six at a minimum lets  the cream rise to the top..

 

 

I don’t have an answer to your question because of the subjective system set up by the FHSAA

But unless ties are determined on the field, the problem can still exist.  Say you've got a 7 or 8-team district and one of the teams runs the table.  The next three teams end up tied for second and they all have two district losses (All 3 teams lose to A; B beat C; C beat D; and D beat B).  How do you determine who the "second place team" is for purposes of the playoffs? 

[Ray Icaza]

2 minutes ago, Perspective said:

But unless ties are determined on the field, the problem can still exist.  Say you've got a 7 or 8-team district and one of the teams runs the table.  The next three teams end up tied for second and they all have two district losses (All 3 teams lose to A; B beat C; C beat D; and D beat B).  How do you determine who the "second place team" is for purposes of the playoffs? 

Based on my understanding of your example, PERFECTION does not exist.

[DarterBlue2]

32 minutes ago, Perspective said:

But unless ties are determined on the field, the problem can still exist.  Say you've got a 7 or 8-team district and one of the teams runs the table.  The next three teams end up tied for second and they all have two district losses (All 3 teams lose to A; B beat C; C beat D; and D beat B).  How do you determine who the "second place team" is for purposes of the playoffs? 

In the old days, you would have a tiebreaker on Monday with each of the teams playing a half of football against each other as necessary. 

The host would be the team with the best overall won/loss record. Or if that's tied, a coin could be flipped to determine the host school. 

[Perspective]

Just now, DarterBlue2 said:

In the old days, you would have a tiebreaker on Monday with each of the teams playing a half of football against each other as necessary. 

The host would be the team with the best overall won/loss record. Or if that's tied, a coin could be flipped to determine the host school. 

Exactly.  I was replying to 181's suggestion that enlarging the size of the districts automatically solves the problems created by the Power Rankings.   While I agree that larger districts are needed, you'll still have problems if you use a Power Ranking to break ties instead of some sort of on-the-field tie-breaker. 

[PinellasFB]

1 hour ago, DarterBlue2 said:

In the old days, you would have a tiebreaker on Monday with each of the teams playing a half of football against each other as necessary. 

The host would be the team with the best overall won/loss record. Or if that's tied, a coin could be flipped to determine the host school. 

I much prefer the ranking method vs this weird way they used to break three way ties.  

[181pl]

2 hours ago, Perspective said:

Exactly.  I was replying to 181's suggestion that enlarging the size of the districts automatically solves the problems created by the Power Rankings.   While I agree that larger districts are needed, you'll still have problems if you use a Power Ranking to break ties instead of some sort of on-the-field tie-breaker. 

it would go along way to solving this. It may not be perfect but it’s a hell of a lot better than a bunch of pinheads at the FHSAA sitting around, deciding who’s better

[181pl]

there are no positive three and 4 team districts. 

[DarterBlue2]

24 minutes ago, 181pl said:

there are no positive three and 4 team districts. 

Except in the rare situation where you had: Northwestern, Central, Norland and a resurgent Carol City all in the same district. To me, districts like that would be ok with just four teams, especially if only two or no more than three made the playoffs. The same would apply if Edgewater, Dr. Phillips, Apopka, Seminole, and the current Lake Mary were all in one district of five teams. 

[Dr. D]

8 hours ago, Perspective said:

But unless ties are determined on the field, the problem can still exist.  Say you've got a 7 or 8-team district and one of the teams runs the table.  The next three teams end up tied for second and they all have two district losses (All 3 teams lose to A; B beat C; C beat D; and D beat B).  How do you determine who the "second place team" is for purposes of the playoffs? 

All states that use this system have a protocol for breaking district ties as you describe.  For example, Alabama lists 15 possible ways for a 3-way tie to be broken.  They include results against common non-district opponents, highest winning percentage of defeated non-district opponents, total victories, etc., but they are all related in some way to results on the field.  The #16 tiebreaker is a coin toss.  So there would be options short of relying on mysterious computer algorithms to break ties.

[181pl]

16 hours ago, DarterBlue2 said:

Except in the rare situation where you had: Northwestern, Central, Norland and a resurgent Carol City all in the same district. To me, districts like that would be ok with just four teams, especially if only two or no more than three made the playoffs. The same would apply if Edgewater, Dr. Phillips, Apopka, Seminole, and the current Lake Mary were all in one district of five teams. 

Put two of those teams in one district of 6-8 teams and two of those teams in another district of 6-8 teams and the cream rises to the top. We have too many classes. This is why the playoffs suck. Larger classes equals larger sample sizes and better results. You will never do anything to prevent disparity in quality between regions. The Big Bend will never compete with Miami-Dade. But those teams are typically in diferent classes. If not, oh well. It's a "state" championship. Not a region championship like watered down California. 

[DarterBlue2]

1 hour ago, 181pl said:

Put two of those teams in one district of 6-8 teams and two of those teams in another district of 6-8 teams and the cream rises to the top. We have too many classes. This is why the playoffs suck. Larger classes equals larger sample sizes and better results. You will never do anything to prevent disparity in quality between regions. The Big Bend will never compete with Miami-Dade. But those teams are typically in diferent classes. If not, oh well. It's a "state" championship. Not a region championship like watered down California. 

The Big Bend and for that matter many small town in obscure places used to do just fine against the powers of Miami Dade and the Fort Lauderdale area. What has turned things on their heads is the modern day reality of the "super teams", whether Private or Public. Once it became open season for kids to transfer to wherever they wished to go solely for athletics or anything else, it guaranteed that the larger metro areas were going to have a significant advantage as it was always going to be a whole lot easier for a Miami Central or for that matter an Orlando Edgewater to load up with transfers from a 15 mile radius than it would be for a Lake City Columbia or even a Deland to do the same. 

If sanity were restored as to who would be immediately eligible to play for a given school, then parity within the state of Florida.   

[PinellasFB]

8 minutes ago, DarterBlue2 said:

The Big Bend and for that matter many small town in obscure places used to do just fine against the powers of Miami Dade and the Fort Lauderdale area. What has turned things on their heads is the modern day reality of the "super teams", whether Private or Public. Once it became open season for kids to transfer to wherever they wished to go solely for athletics or anything else, it guaranteed that the larger metro areas were going to have a significant advantage as it was always going to be a whole lot easier for a Miami Central or for that matter an Orlando Edgewater to load up with transfers from a 15 mile radius than it would be for a Lake City Columbia or even a Deland to do the same. 

If sanity were restored as to who would be immediately eligible to play for a given school, then parity within the state of Florida.   

Super teams are the worst thing to happen to FL football.  

[Jambun82]

7 minutes ago, DarterBlue2 said:

The Big Bend and for that matter many small town in obscure places used to do just fine against the powers of Miami Dade and the Fort Lauderdale area. What has turned things on their heads is the modern day reality of the "super teams", whether Private or Public. Once it became open season for kids to transfer to wherever they wished to go solely for athletics or anything else, it guaranteed that the larger metro areas were going to have a significant advantage as it was always going to be a whole lot easier for a Miami Central or for that matter an Orlando Edgewater to load up with transfers from a 15 mile radius than it would be for a Lake City Columbia or even a Deland to do the same. 

If sanity were restored as to who would be immediately eligible to play for a given school, then parity within the state of Florida.   

The blue, black, and white team gets plenty of transfers. man who provides me many nice compliments. 

[DarterBlue2]

4 minutes ago, Jambun82 said:

The blue, black, and white team gets plenty of transfers. man who provides me many nice compliments. 

The Apopka Blue Darter has never buttered its bread on transfers. If you believe otherwise, please provide evidence. We are fortunate that the school has a lot of talent within its boundaries. The trick has always been to keep the talent at home. For the most part we have, due to the program having stable coaching and a winning tradition. 

[Jambun82]

22 minutes ago, PinellasFB said:

Super teams are the worst thing to happen to FL football.  

In my view armchair officials, and the way that the brave men and women of honor who wear the black and white shirts on Friday Nights are sometimes treated negatively are the worst thing to happen to Florida High School Football. 

[Jambun82]

17 minutes ago, DarterBlue2 said:

The Apopka Blue Darter has never buttered its bread on transfers. If you believe otherwise, please provide evidence. We are fortunate that the school has a lot of talent within its boundaries. The trick has always been to keep the talent at home. For the most part we have, due to the program having stable coaching and a winning tradition. 

The blue, black, and white team gets plenty of transfers, man who provides me many nice compliments. 

[DarterBlue2]

23 minutes ago, Jambun82 said:

The blue, black, and white team gets plenty of transfers, man who provides me many nice compliments. 

You are a vacuous person who makes statements and allegations but can provide no proof of them.

You can't even provide a decent secondary source. 

The truth is, if Apopka recruited heavily, and modified its offense to accommodate potential recruits, it would dominate the greater Orlando area in similar fashion to how the Miami Central's and St. Thomas's dominate South Florida.

But of course, if we did that, it would bring a multitude of unintended consequences with it. These would probably negate any benefit to the performance of the football program.  

[PinellasFB]

Checking other districts,  I see that 4S-8 will go to the final rankings tie breaker too for Haines City, Bartow and Winter Haven.  Any others?

[181pl]

11 hours ago, PinellasFB said:

Super teams are the worst thing to happen to FL football.  

Yes. Separate the private schools and there would be less "super teams" on the public school level. Open transfers are right up there with super teams. Makes it a whole lot easier to compete with AHP, STA, Cardinal Gibbons,etc., and it would be a lot less necessary if the private school powers are out on their ass and competing in their own league (they don't need to be part of the FHSAA).

On the public school side, certain teams will always be good because of community support and demographics. But if teams don't have to gear up to try and play recruited up juggernauts like STA and the like, I think you'd see a lot less of the super team on the public school end. 

[SportsFan]

57 minutes ago, 181pl said:

Yes. Separate the private schools and there would be less "super teams" on the public school level. Open transfers are right up there with super teams. Makes it a whole lot easier to compete with AHP, STA, Cardinal Gibbons,etc., and it would be a lot less necessary if the private school powers are out on their ass and competing in their own league (they don't need to be part of the FHSAA).

On the public school side, certain teams will always be good because of community support and demographics. But if teams don't have to gear up to try and play recruited up juggernauts like STA and the like, I think you'd see a lot less of the super team on the public school end. 

You don't know that, it's just an assumption you keep repeating over and over again to justify your hatred of private schools, I've seen teams like TCA and Bolles and they aren't some unbeatable machine, Trinity Catholic is playing Buchholz this week and Buchholz has far more transfers than Trinity Catholic yet by your logic it's perfectly okay for a team like Buchholz to load up on transfers but Trinity Catholic is evil for it? You also assume separating privates would somehow stop transfers to public schools like Miami Central? Based on what? They don't even share a class with teams like STA so it wouldn't make any difference to them and again it's just an assumption that you have no evidence to back up 

It's a lot of random assumptions that have nothing to do with the problem but you somehow think going back to 2016 Florida HS Football will fix the problems but again you are living in the past and not actually seeing the clear reality of what has happened in this state 

[DarterBlue2]

Basically, any football team, private or public, that wants to have a high national ranking or a shot at a "mythical" National Championship will have a high incentive to recruit. Without doing so, they have no chance as there are several "National Caliber" teams that are stacked. Most of these are private.

So, I am pretty sure recruiting will not stop at the Miami Centrals of the world. In the case of some other publics, such as Edgewater in Orlando, that may wish to have a shot at say, the 3M crown, but that does not necessarily have National Championship aspirations, they will continue to recruit in order to give them a shot at a state championship as St. Thomas Aquinas stands in the way, and they recruit heavily. 

Bottom line is that it cuts both ways. But I don't think that the solution to separate the publics from the privates will solve the problem. From my perspective, what would is requiring football transfers to sit out a year before being eligible to play Varsity football. Give them the option to play JV for the first year but not varsity and the flood of transfers would be reduced to a trickle. Of course, some very narrowly crafted exceptions could be could be made (a divorce or death in the family that changes the kid's guardian, a job promotion by the major breadwinner in the family requiring a move to a different location, etc.).  

[181pl]

8 hours ago, SportsFan said:

You don't know that, it's just an assumption you keep repeating over and over again to justify your hatred of private schools, I've seen teams like TCA and Bolles and they aren't some unbeatable machine, Trinity Catholic is playing Buchholz this week and Buchholz has far more transfers than Trinity Catholic yet by your logic it's perfectly okay for a team like Buchholz to load up on transfers but Trinity Catholic is evil for it? You also assume separating privates would somehow stop transfers to public schools like Miami Central? Based on what? They don't even share a class with teams like STA so it wouldn't make any difference to them and again it's just an assumption that you have no evidence to back up 

It's a lot of random assumptions that have nothing to do with the problem but you somehow think going back to 2016 Florida HS Football will fix the problems but again you are living in the past and not actually seeing the clear reality of what has happened in this state 

This thread  is about competition. Not hatred of private schools.I don't hate private schools. I hate tilted playing fields. It makes no sense for STA and the like to play Joe Public for championshps. I know there are occaisonal exceptions (great Lakeland teams that can draw from Polk and eastern Hillsborough, etc.).

Back in our day, at least in FL, most private school football was a joke. But Bolles and STA set the blue print and now there are a few dozen private schools trying to fit that model. A public school cannot compete with private schools if a private school decides to become a football factory (educational resources, connections, reduced or comped tuition, football resources, facilities, coaching, recruiting opportunies, etc.). To think otherwise is just not being honest with yourself.  I'm all for the private schools doing what they want and competing for mythical National Titles, etc.

There are 500-600 public schools at a big disadvantage against private schools when the private school decides to become a football factory (it takes some time and it always doesn't work, but there are enough now that the playing field is unfairly skewed at every level). And BS open transfers (which I'm totally against) don't really even the playing field. The only exception might be Miami-Dade where two or maybe three teams might be able compete at a super elite level just due to the raw talent in the area. 

 

[181pl]

8 hours ago, DarterBlue2 said:

Basically, any football team, private or public, that wants to have a high national ranking or a shot at a "mythical" National Championship. So, I am pretty sure this will not stop the Miami Centrals of the world from recruiting. In the case of some other publics, such as Edgewater in Orlando, that may wish to have a shot at say, the 3M crown, but that does not necessarily have National Championship aspirations, they will continue to recruit in order to give them a shot at a state championship. 

Bottom line is that it cuts both ways. But I don't think that the solution to separate the publics from the privates will solve the problem. From my perspective, what would is requiring football transfers to sit out a year before being eligible to play Varsity football. Give them the option to play JV for the first year but not varsity and the flood of transfers would be reduced to a trickle. Of course, some very narrowly crafted exceptions could be could be made (a divorce or death in the family that changes the kid's guardian, a job promotion by the major breadwinner in the family requiring a move to a different location, etc.).  

We agree on the transfer issue. I think if teams know they aren't competing against Bolles, STA, AHP, Chaminade, Jesuit, Cardinal Gibbons, Cardinal Newman, TCA, NFC, Columbus, Berekely Prep, CCC, Benjamin, Calvarly, etc etc etc., there would be less of an incentive to "recruit" (which is illegal anyway).