FL vs other states

[PinellasFB]

I'm visiting my in laws in Texarkana Tx and I can't believe how well funded these teams are here.  The local HS team (Texas HS) even has an indoor practice facility!  Insane.  No wonder Texas cranks out the most college QBs with their well paid (and great) coaching staffs.  Florida, on the other hand, doesn't seem to compete with Texas, GA and CA top end teams despite having endless pools of talent to draw from. 

I am stunned not only by the football funding here but the Texas educational funding in general is vastly superior to FL.  Why is FL so far behind in funding?  Do the public school football powers in FL supplement their coaching staffs pay from the boosters or something?  How can MNW afford Teddy Bridgewater as coach, for example?

[MarkECannon]

How much is MNW paying Coach Bridgewater?  I would guess $0.  He does not need the money.  He probably donates money to the program.  Supposedly his net worth is more than $20 million.

[MarkECannon]

The truth is Florida does not really have a high school football culture.  Despite having the best raw talent in the country we don’t support it like some other states do.  If we did this site would average over 100 posts a day during the football season.  The promotion of the high school football product is sorely lacking in this state.

Thanks for this post PinellasFB.  My question for the board would be this (I’m know this has been discussed here before):

If you had the power, within reason, what would you do to promote Florida High School Football?  I would love to hear your ideas.

[THAT S--T WAS FUNNY]

2 hours ago, PinellasFB said:

I'm visiting my in laws in Texarkana Tx and I can't believe how well funded these teams are here.  The local HS team (Texas HS) even has an indoor practice facility!  Insane.  No wonder Texas cranks out the most college QBs with their well paid (and great) coaching staffs.  Florida, on the other hand, doesn't seem to compete with Texas, GA and CA top end teams despite having endless pools of talent to draw from. 

I am stunned not only by the football funding here but the Texas educational funding in general is vastly superior to FL.  Why is FL so far behind in funding?  Do the public school football powers in FL supplement their coaching staffs pay from the boosters or something?  How can MNW afford Teddy Bridgewater as coach, for example?

Texas has independent school districts. There might be only one high school in a particular district with their own school board and superintendent dedicated to that one high school. It would be like PHU being governed by people that only have PHU's educational and athletic interest at heart. Mix in some oil money and you have those amazing facilities and community backing. 

[Dr. D]

Having lived in Texas for 5 years, I can attest that there are some meaningful differences from Florida.  To begin with, property taxes are significantly higher, so there is more money available for public school kinds of things.  My wife's pay and benefits as a public-school teacher there were very good.  Some would argue that you get what you pay for.

In terms of football culture, it is definitely a different level in terms of community support.  In larger cities, a school district may have 8-12 high schools, but every high school does not have its own stadium.  The school district may have 2-3 multi-use stadiums seating 10-15,000 and shared on Thursday-Saturday nights.  Attendance for a regular season game may be 8-10,000, and I attended one regional playoff game in the University of Texas stadium with 40,000 in attendance.  In small communities with one high school, the sky is the limit with what financial resources that particular community might have.  The bands, dance teams, and cheerleaders dwarf in size what I have seen in Florida.  

I will say that in the panhandle, I have seen excellent game-day atmospheres at Niceville, Choctaw, Crestview, Pace, Tate, and Navarre.  I think this is because these are primarily "one community, one high school" types of settings.  On a larger level, you cannot just infuse "culture" into a state such as Florida by waving a magic wand.  I'm afraid I don't have the single answer to improve the status of high school football in Florida.  

[PinellasFB]

1 hour ago, Dr. D said:

I will say that in the panhandle, I have seen excellent game-day atmospheres at Niceville, Choctaw, Crestview, Pace, Tate, and Navarre.  I think this is because these are primarily "one community, one high school" types of settings.  On a larger level, you cannot just infuse "culture" into a state such as Florida by waving a magic wand.  I'm afraid I don't have the single answer to improve the status of high school football in Florida.  

Yeah lack of community identity is probably the single biggest issue here in FL.  You might have 10+ schools within a few miles of each other in any metro area.  Unless your kid is a student at that school, there's no community bonding. 

[nolebull813]

I moved to Tennessee and some of these stadiums look like small colleges. We went to a high school stadium that had 2 level and 4 floors of elevators to get to the top. At a high school stadium! 
 

imagine that. You need an elevator to get to the top seats and you tell the people you need floor 4 when they press the button for floor 3!!!!!!

[nolebull813]

It’s the same thing. Taxes are higher and they charge $1,500 for out of zone students. So if you don’t live in the boundary of the school, you have to pay $1,500 for your student not just athlete to go there. Thats pretty smart and probably limits some transfers a little bit. 
 

My son goes to a school top 10 in the state in academics and the stadium is outrageous. Looks way better than any stadium I ever been to in Florida. And you can see the tax money getting put back into the school and community. Roads are always paved. Never a pot hole. Never litter on the side of the road. Etc 

[Longtime Observer]

On 12/26/2024 at 7:21 AM, PinellasFB said:

I'm visiting my in laws in Texarkana Tx and I can't believe how well funded these teams are here.  The local HS team (Texas HS) even has an indoor practice facility!  Insane.  No wonder Texas cranks out the most college QBs with their well paid (and great) coaching staffs.  Florida, on the other hand, doesn't seem to compete with Texas, GA and CA top end teams despite having endless pools of talent to draw from. 

I am stunned not only by the football funding here but the Texas educational funding in general is vastly superior to FL.  Why is FL so far behind in funding?  Do the public school football powers in FL supplement their coaching staffs pay from the boosters or something?  How can MNW afford Teddy Bridgewater as coach, for example?

Georgia is very similar to Texas in this regard. What you see in the northern Atlanta suburbs is super communities emerging, where the community takes great pride in their town and their schools. Several national-level powers (Milton and Buford most notably) are, at once, very highly rated schools among the elite anywhere AND highly invested in the football program. Some of that appears to exist in Tennessee as well, per nolebull. 

[FBGUY1989]

Well I can speak on FL well South FL to be exact which is the talent down here is good. For a lot of schools getting to states and winning requires you to beat a school from South FL more so Miami and Broward County. Now Broward schools have their own stadiums on campus, whereas Miami schools don't and schools have to share stadiums. 

Now Miami does have neighborhoods with one or two schools like Liberty City has Central and Northwestern and Overtown has Booker T. Washington Which all three schools are powerhouses and each school has 7 plus state titles. 

I wish I had an answer but I don't. I said all of this to give some credit but I can't. Miami schools don't have space for their own stadiums on campus and when alumni and the community gives back it's usually towards scholarships new books and so on. One of the iconic famous stadiums out of Miami is Traz Powell which can use drastic upgrades and nothing has happened and you would think the school board would help out and they don't. Again this is just my opinion. I could be right or I could be wrong.

[MarkECannon]

It’s too bad nobody has any money down there in Miami.  

[FBGUY1989]

26 minutes ago, MarkECannon said:

It’s too bad nobody has any money down there in Miami.  

Yeah but the money would have to go towards stadiums that are shared. Miami schools don't have the space for a stadium on campus. 

[Jambun82]

On 12/26/2024 at 4:09 PM, Dr. D said:

Having lived in Texas for 5 years, I can attest that there are some meaningful differences from Florida.  To begin with, property taxes are significantly higher, so there is more money available for public school kinds of things.  My wife's pay and benefits as a public-school teacher there were very good.  Some would argue that you get what you pay for.

In terms of football culture, it is definitely a different level in terms of community support.  In larger cities, a school district may have 8-12 high schools, but every high school does not have its own stadium.  The school district may have 2-3 multi-use stadiums seating 10-15,000 and shared on Thursday-Saturday nights.  Attendance for a regular season game may be 8-10,000, and I attended one regional playoff game in the University of Texas stadium with 40,000 in attendance.  In small communities with one high school, the sky is the limit with what financial resources that particular community might have.  The bands, dance teams, and cheerleaders dwarf in size what I have seen in Florida.  

I will say that in the panhandle, I have seen excellent game-day atmospheres at Niceville, Choctaw, Crestview, Pace, Tate, and Navarre.  I think this is because these are primarily "one community, one high school" types of settings.  On a larger level, you cannot just infuse "culture" into a state such as Florida by waving a magic wand.  I'm afraid I don't have the single answer to improve the status of high school football in Florida.  

Raising property taxes is not going to get people to care more about High School Football. I figured that there was some kind of taxpayer-funded public servant in your immediate family with that kind of comment and remark. 

[MarkECannon]

In the case of Miami, and this could be done in other places, why wouldn’t beneficially inclined multimillion or multibillion dollar corporations or corporate partners with strong connections to the area come together to provide some solutions.  Figuring out imaginative solutions that would be attainable.

Many, if not all, of these schools come from relatively impoverished areas.  Where is the appreciation and recognition of the accomplishments of these athletic programs?  The Miami area is known nationwide for its excellence in producing athletes that make significant contributions to the NFL.  Hell, they could get them involved.  God knows much of the high quality that is exhibited in the league comes from this area.

[MarkECannon]

4 minutes ago, MarkECannon said:

 

[FBGUY1989]

24 minutes ago, MarkECannon said:

In the case of Miami, and this could be done in other places, why wouldn’t beneficially inclined multimillion or multibillion dollar corporations or corporate partners with strong connections to the area come together to provide some solutions.  Figuring out imaginative solutions that would be attainable.

Many, if not all, of these schools come from relatively impoverished areas.  Where is the appreciation and recognition of the accomplishments of these athletic programs?  The Miami area is known nationwide for its excellence in producing athletes that make significant contributions to the NFL.  Hell, they could get them involved.  God knows much of the high quality that is exhibited in the league comes from this area.

True but you can only do so much if you are choosing to do so. A lot of entertainers and athletes come out of these schools but they don't do much of anything and for the ones that do they can't keep doing things because they'll end of broke. 

[MarkECannon]

13 minutes ago, FBGUY1989 said:

True but you can only do so much if you are choosing to do so. A lot of entertainers and athletes come out of these schools but they don't do much of anything and for the ones that do they can't keep doing things because they'll end of broke. 

[MarkECannon]

Sorry FBGUY, I seem to be struggling with the QUOTE button.  I’m not so much referring to individuals but from very large corporations.  Individuals, such as Luke or Pitbull, can get involved in some sort such as publicity but it most likely won’t come from one individual.

Some of these companies could be Citadel Securities, Ryder, Carnival Cruise, etc.

[FBGUY1989]

58 minutes ago, MarkECannon said:

Sorry FBGUY, I seem to be struggling with the QUOTE button.  I’m not so much referring to individuals but from very large corporations.  Individuals, such as Luke or Pitbull, can get involved in some sort such as publicity but it most likely won’t come from one individual.

Some of these companies could be Citadel Securities, Ryder, Carnival Cruise, etc.

Oh got you. Besides the Miami Dolphins who help out sometimes I don't know of anyone else helping out.

[Dr. D]

14 hours ago, Jambun82 said:

Raising property taxes is not going to get people to care more about High School Football. I figured that there was some kind of taxpayer-funded public servant in your immediate family with that kind of comment and remark. 

Thanks for pointing out that there is no correlation between higher taxes and interest in high school football.  If that were the case, New Jersey would be known for having the most passionate supporters of high school football.

My point was in response to PinellasFB's observation of an athletic facility in Texas, i.e. a willingness to support the construction of football stadiums, practice facilities, gymnasiums, natatoriums and so on through higher taxes and/or personal financial contributions suggests a more passionate and supportive fan base.  I am not advocating for higher taxes of any type.

 

[Jambun82]

2 minutes ago, Dr. D said:

Thanks for pointing out that there is no correlation between higher taxes and interest in high school football.  If that were the case, New Jersey would be known for having the most passionate supporters of high school football.

My point was in response to PinellasFB's observation of an athletic facility in Texas, i.e. a willingness to support the construction of football stadiums, practice facilities, gymnasiums, natatoriums and so on through higher taxes and/or personal financial contributions suggests a more passionate and supportive fan base.  I am not advocating for higher taxes of any type.

 

That is good to know then. The Walter Mondale types are going the way of the Dodo in the FREE STATE OF FLORIDA! 

[Nulli Secundus]

I've asked myself this question a lot of the years, If I had my way, lol. Such a small question and a very complicated answer.  I'll try to lay it out without talking you all to death, lol. 

 

Facilities

NFL teams that receives money from the state of Florida, the cities and/or the counties in which they reside should sponsor AND advertise FHSAA logos on their stadiums and include in promotional merchandizing in which the cut should go directly to the schools for facilities and advertisement.  In other words whenever negotiations start regarding funding a new stadium, the FHSAA aspect should be baked in without exception, 5%-10%.  With 3 NFL teams in Florida and a sizeable roster native to the state, not giving back is a travesty especially when taxes are levied to enhance their facilities and keep them in the Sunshine State.

 

Coaching

Florida DOE needs to make a decision regarding classification "coach".  Are coaches going to be teachers in the classroom in addition to coaching or will they be hired for the sole purpose of coaching only?  Both have pros and cons but I think most would agree that the current system in place is not working considering the amount of hours that goes into practice and preparation outside of regular teaching duties.  

The bigger question becomes, how much is a coach worth in Florida? Is a coach worth more than the principal?  No.  Is a coach worth more than an English, Math or Science teacher?  Society will say no in a heartbeat.  Some will argue that coaches are already fairly compensated when you factor in that other educational professionals work after hours lesson planning and grading with no stipend or supplemental support aside from their paycheck.  From that vantage point, coaches are going to lose every single time.  However, a Football Coach as a singular entity might be easier to push if that coach is successful.  If the state went that route, I would imagine there would be a lot of turnover for performance reasons.

 

FHSAA

I've said this before and I'll say it again.  I've always been a proponent of having less classifications.  I used to believe in a promotion system based on performance but that was before the open transfer era.  Two things needs to happen before I leave this earth; Open transfers needs to be done away with AND the FHSAA should only have one class, once and for all until the number of schools justify adding a 2nd class.  It shouldn't matter how large or small your municipality is.  It's your 22 vs my 22.  May the best team win.  Schools that don't think it's fair or don't want to compete because they may be physically outmatched are free to leave the FHSAA.  I would expect more to follow because the simple truth is not every team is going to win and every dominant team will eventually lose.  It is a TRAVESTY that in this state there isn't a true champion.  When that happens, Florida would be regarding as THE TOUGHEST football state in the nation.

Promoting Florida High School Football is easy.  It virtually sells itself.  However, it does take promotion and it should be a year round campaign that encompasses all sports honestly.  However we are talking about high school football so I'll only talk about that.  Another element that really hurts Florida is the rapid growth and migratory patterns of residents in and out of the state.  There are a few of us on this board that no longer reside in Florida and with it the goes the tradition and allegiance for our respective areas.  It's now replaced with out of state people looking for a slice of Florida paradise and prosperity with no local ties to the community and that's part of the reason why fan and school support is dwindling.  How would I combat that?  In conjunction with only having one class, that one class would be divided in 64 districts comprising of 6-8 teams each.  The winner of each district goes to the playoffs to start a 6 round playoff ending with one champion, end of story.  From a marketing and advertisement perspective, I would do so much in the manner of the Hunger games.  Which district will bring it home?  At that point, it becomes bigger than just the school representing the district.  It becomes about the entire district and there's a good chance that attendance and support could rise based on pride alone.  Then, the State of Florida in conjunction with the NFL pool could supply funding to market and televise.  

 

Sorry, my thoughts are random and radical but this is what I would do if I could.  By the way, this is not all of them, lol.

[h8r]

texas-

oil money, bond money, independent school districts, very high property taxes, middle school football(pop warner is before 6th grade football in most parts), all coaches are in the school district, UIL(the governing body of both athletics and academics) does not allow for off campus coaches, unless you are retired by the state of texas education.

the indy school districts all pay the same state level teacher pay.  its their bonus/supplement that their school boards can approve.  so the 100k FB coach that doesnt teach, hes probably making 35k in a school board supplment.  

oil money is there, but in the forms of a bond.  high property taxes, independent school dist personnnel ask the county to raise the property taxes for their zone, it goes to vote every year and it gets passed.  things like road construction, proper drainage in local areas, sidewalks, snow plows, are very scarce/poorly maintained.  but most of those school dist have a huge stadium with turf!  

Football is the life of the communitiy, all over the state.  6 man, 8 man, 11 man.  an entire community shuts down and goes to the home game.  have seen some real interesting things go on during the times ive been out in west texas.  mojo football, just like the movie, is 100% real.  coaches getting fired for losing in the state title game.  

be careful what you wish for, however.  you get local school board involved in paying coaches more money, dont you dare go 6-4 and not make playoffs.  why did we pay you an extra 20k?  not to lose to that bad school.

 

[Dr. D]

On 12/28/2024 at 12:16 PM, Nulli Secundus said:

 

 

FHSAA

I've said this before and I'll say it again.  I've always been a proponent of having less classifications.  I used to believe in a promotion system based on performance but that was before the open transfer era.  Two things needs to happen before I leave this earth; Open transfers needs to be done away with AND the FHSAA should only have one class, once and for all until the number of schools justify adding a 2nd class.  It shouldn't matter how large or small your municipality is.  It's your 22 vs my 22.  May the best team win.  Schools that don't think it's fair or don't want to compete because they may be physically outmatched are free to leave the FHSAA.  I would expect more to follow because the simple truth is not every team is going to win and every dominant team will eventually lose.  It is a TRAVESTY that in this state there isn't a true champion.  When that happens, Florida would be regarding as THE TOUGHEST football state in the nation.

Promoting Florida High School Football is easy.  It virtually sells itself.  However, it does take promotion and it should be a year round campaign that encompasses all sports honestly.  However we are talking about high school football so I'll only talk about that.  Another element that really hurts Florida is the rapid growth and migratory patterns of residents in and out of the state.  There are a few of us on this board that no longer reside in Florida and with it the goes the tradition and allegiance for our respective areas.  It's now replaced with out of state people looking for a slice of Florida paradise and prosperity with no local ties to the community and that's part of the reason why fan and school support is dwindling.  How would I combat that?  In conjunction with only having one class, that one class would be divided in 64 districts comprising of 6-8 teams each.  The winner of each district goes to the playoffs to start a 6 round playoff ending with one champion, end of story.  From a marketing and advertisement perspective, I would do so much in the manner of the Hunger games.  Which district will bring it home?  At that point, it becomes bigger than just the school representing the district.  It becomes about the entire district and there's a good chance that attendance and support could rise based on pride alone.  Then, the State of Florida in conjunction with the NFL pool could supply funding to market and televise.  

 

Sorry, my thoughts are random and radical but this is what I would do if I could.  By the way, this is not all of them, lol.

I appreciate the thoughtful, reasoned viewpoints you publish on this forum.  I wish the powers-that-be in the FHSAA had your passion and dedication to high school football.

Several points of contention:  First, I hope you live a long, healthy, prosperous life, as open transfers are not going away anytime soon, because school choice laws are not changing any time soon in Florida.  That is just a fact.  It will never be "your 22 vs my 22"; it will be your school's kids + the kids from other schools in the county + the kids from the next counties over + the kids from across the state, vs my 22. 

The fact that Miami Central (metro population = 3M) is in the same classification (3A) as Brooksville Central (population = 9,800) shows how screwed up the competitive balance is in Florida.  Putting all teams in one classification would likely lead to the 95% of schools with no chance of winning a championship in the first place leaving the FHSAA.  Why not just put the elite 5% in their own classification, and leave everyone else alone?  The NCAA realizes that all schools are not created equal, which is why we have the FCS, FBS, Division II and Division III.  Florida high school football is no different.  The only state I am aware of that has a singular state champion is Kentucky, and that is in basketball.  But no one thinks Kentucky is the toughest basketball state in the nation.  Maybe there are too many classifications in Florida, but going from 8 to 1 may be a bit too radical (for me, anyway).

Well, again, I appreciate your creative thinking and maybe it will somehow rub off on those who can act to make Florida high school football better for all.           

[Nulli Secundus]

2 hours ago, Dr. D said:

I appreciate the thoughtful, reasoned viewpoints you publish on this forum.  I wish the powers-that-be in the FHSAA had your passion and dedication to high school football.

Several points of contention:  First, I hope you live a long, healthy, prosperous life, as open transfers are not going away anytime soon, because school choice laws are not changing any time soon in Florida.  That is just a fact.  It will never be "your 22 vs my 22"; it will be your school's kids + the kids from other schools in the county + the kids from the next counties over + the kids from across the state, vs my 22. 

The fact that Miami Central (metro population = 3M) is in the same classification (3A) as Brooksville Central (population = 9,800) shows how screwed up the competitive balance is in Florida.  Putting all teams in one classification would likely lead to the 95% of schools with no chance of winning a championship in the first place leaving the FHSAA.  Why not just put the elite 5% in their own classification, and leave everyone else alone?  The NCAA realizes that all schools are not created equal, which is why we have the FCS, FBS, Division II and Division III.  Florida high school football is no different.  The only state I am aware of that has a singular state champion is Kentucky, and that is in basketball.  But no one thinks Kentucky is the toughest basketball state in the nation.  Maybe there are too many classifications in Florida, but going from 8 to 1 may be a bit too radical (for me, anyway).

Well, again, I appreciate your creative thinking and maybe it will somehow rub off on those who can act to make Florida high school football better for all.           

I try to provide objective information from my point of view.  I guess there may be a little bias in that, lol.  Seriously, thank you.  I hope I live a long and prosperous life as well.  Things really come into perspective as I approach that half century milestone.  Sheesh!  Anyway, I have stated before that I know Lakeland, Polk County and statistics.  I rely on other knowledgeable posters like yourself to fill in the rest.   

First, I'm going to say that the idea of competitive balance AT BEST is a cruel joke.  I honestly believe the notion of competitive balance is an outright lie.  There is nothing that can be done to resolve that outside of bussing "talent" to starving schools to equal the playing field.  In the example you cited using Miami Central and Brooksville Central in the same classification to show how screwed up competitive balance is in Florida.  You're right, competitive balance is a cruel joke.  Even without the current climate of open transfers, Brooksville Central or any Hernando County school for that matter historically don't have strong teams.  That is systemic to Hernando's football ecosystem in having players on a larger scale that can compete with neighboring counties.  Since 1963, Hernando County has YET to produce a team that made it beyond the 3rd round with most of their departures in the 1st round.  I can see the clear advantage Miami Central would have over Brookville Central.  However, the question I pose to you is does a class exist in which Brooksville Central has a fighting chance?  As I stated in my previous post, if the state were to undo open transfers AND go to one class, those schools that are at a disadvantage are free to leave the FHSAA.  As @nolebull813 would say, there are some schools that shouldn't play football and this is no exception.  However, if you are going to play football, then strap up and play football. 

To your comment about having one classification would likely lead to 95% of the schools with no chance of winning a championship, how does that differ from today?  How many prognosticators predicted this year's finals?  Also, I whole-heartedly believe moving the 5% in a new classification will only breed a new tier of powers below that 5% threshold.  It will be the same vicious cycle and the same complaints will continue. 

I hear what you're saying about the National Crooked Athletic Association and I agree with the remark that not are schools are created equally.  That comes down to money.  The more money and notoriety you have as a school, the better athletes a school can pool from.  Which reminds me, NIL needs to be abolished at the high school level.  Just my opinion.  Also at the high school level, until there's a universal player portal and rating system that can be tracked and assigned to select schools/counties based on player performance and athletic ability/potential, that would do a disservice to the entire state.  You're already telling these young men that you don't measure up when they should be afforded the opportunity to show was they can do where it counts; the classroom, the weightroom, the training/film room and the field.  However, the lessons learned from the trials are invaluable beginning with Team work and not quitting above all else.  Not every school or county will be proficient in football and no amount of hand holding, adjusting and balancing will change that.  That's where other sports come into play.  I have to believe that everybody is good at something.  Maybe not football...

Regarding Kentucky, no disrespect to the Blue Grass State but it's Kentucky, and it's basketball.  Football reigns supreme and because of that, no one looks twice.  

I'm always up for good thought provoking conversation.  Thank you for your insightfulness as well.