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OldSchoolLion

A Historic Playoff Game - Bay vs Rutherford

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How many times have schools less than 5 miles apart met in a FHSAA Final 4 game?  Not too often.

I can think of one such game.  The schools are only 3 miles apart and played each other in a state semi.  

Amazingly, these were 2 of only 3 public high schools in their county at the time.  Imagine what the atmosphere was like for that game.

Who were the teams and who won the game?

  

 

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7 hours ago, THIS_IS_DILLARD said:

I didn’t know gables was a public school thought they were private 

Only large private school in Dade county that plays football is Columbus. Gables is public. It is near UM in a middle to upper middle class part of of the county. I used to work with someone that went to Gables. Also, Chuck Todd on NBC is an alum. 

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Christopher Columbus High School is a Catholic all male private school, something that I was not aware of. What is amazing is that there are practically no minority students in the school to include the faculty as far as I can see. What is the reason for that? Strange being in the heart of Miami a multicultural city. They were the 8A champions in 2019 and they do seem to play a pretty tough schedule. Interesting, you learn something new every day.

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1 hour ago, Proseteye said:

Christopher Columbus High School is a Catholic all male private school, something that I was not aware of. What is amazing is that there are practically no minority students in the school to include the faculty as far as I can see. What is the reason for that? Strange being in the heart of Miami a multicultural city. They were the 8A champions in 2019 and they do seem to play a pretty tough schedule. Interesting, you learn something new every day.

I don't know about that Proset; I count at least 20 players that are either minority or have been spending a whole lot of time out on Miami Beach.  B)   And judging just from the uniform numbers, it would appear that skill positions guys (RBs, WR's, DB's) are minorities.  Here's a link to the team picture:

https://www.columbushs.com/Team-Pages?fromId=247839&Team=133787&SeasonLabel=2019 - 2020&siteId=1075

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I never looked at the team but was looking at the student body and staff en-mass. Almost all non minorities. The very few minorities that they have must all be on their football team then. Was just curious.

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6 hours ago, Perspective said:

I don't know about that Proset; I count at least 20 players that are either minority or have been spending a whole lot of time out on Miami Beach.  B)   And judging just from the uniform numbers, it would appear that skill positions guys (RBs, WR's, DB's) are minorities.  Here's a link to the team picture:

https://www.columbushs.com/Team-Pages?fromId=247839&Team=133787&SeasonLabel=2019 - 2020&siteId=1075

According to one internet source, 2% of Columbus' student body, or are about 30 boys at the school, are AA.   I guess it is just an incredible coincidence that most of those 30 are on the varsity football team.  I am sure it has nothing to do with certain private schools giving priority to minority football players when it comes to handing out financial aid...as opposed to academically deserving minority students who don't happen to play football.   

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, OldSchoolLion said:

According to one internet source, 2% of Columbus' student body, or are about 30 boys at the school, are AA.   I guess it is just an incredible coincidence that most of those 30 are on the varsity football team.  I am sure it has nothing to do with certain private schools giving priority to minority football players when it comes to handing out financial aid...as opposed to academically deserving minority students who don't happen to play football.   

 

 

 

That's consistent with most opulent private schools. My "boy" Tommi Hill who plays for Edgewater, declined an offer at a well known, local private school. The scholly was based on his football skills. However, in the interest of full disclosure, his academics are not shabby either. 

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4 hours ago, Proseteye said:

I never looked at the team but was looking at the student body and staff en-mass. Almost all non minorities. The very few minorities that they have must all be on their football team then. Was just curious.

yeah no recruiting there or extra financial support for good skilled football players.  It just happens the only minorities wear a football jersey.

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On 5/5/2020 at 7:07 PM, OldSchoolLion said:

How many times have schools less than 5 miles apart met in a FHSAA Final 4 game?  Not too often.

I can think of one such game.  The schools are only 3 miles apart and played each other in a state semi.  

Amazingly, these were 2 of only 3 public high schools in their county at the time.  Imagine what the atmosphere was like for that game.

Who were the teams and who won the game?

  

 

1993 Bay vs Rutherford.  Bay won in a blowout. Bay's head coach was Jim Scroggins, one of several former Desoto coaches to leave Arcadia and win somewhere else. 

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7 hours ago, Hwy17 said:

1993 Bay vs Rutherford.  Bay won in a blowout. Bay's head coach was Jim Scroggins, one of several former Desoto coaches to leave Arcadia and win somewhere else. 

That's right .  Bay, Rutherford and Mosley were the only public high schools in Bay County then.  Bay almost won it all that year, coming up just short against Bradenton Southeast in the 5A final.  

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So, what do we think about a system where athletically talented kids of color are subtly (or not so subtly) 'invited' to attend schools that, in all likelihood, they would not be able to afford (and likely wouldn't really want to attend anyway) but for the opportunity to play sports?  And before I go any further, I'll apologize in advance for the over-generalizations and lack of caveats used in this post.  I'm trying to paint a realistic picture, but I'm only using a couple of colors. 

Clearly, kids are getting financial assistance (in some/many cases, full scholarships) based primarily/exclusively on their athletic talent.  According to FHSAA rules, this is not allowed.   But look back at the comments in this thread.  Everyone seems to believe/understand that it is going on.  And I'm not picking on Columbus.   This goes on in private schools everywhere.   Does the rule need to be changed?   Why is everyone willing to turn their heads to this system of apparent violations?   Is it because there is a sentiment that the minority kids who attend private schools to play football are getting a better education in a better environment than they otherwise would be getting -- and that makes everything OK?  

Let's look at this from another angle.   Why do the schools do it?  Do they feel better about themselves as educators -- and as people -- if in their minds, they can provide a 'Blind Side' opportunity to kids who have athletic talent but who might otherwise get lost in the public school shuffle?  Or do they simply do it because the alums/parents/administrators at those schools cherish their state championships and know that they're considerably less likely to hoist the trophy without the speed/athleticism that the scholarship kids bring? 

Best I can tell, this is a state-wide phenomenon.  I could start listing schools in South Florida, Ft. Lauderdale, the Tampa Bay area, Jacksonville, etc. by name or simply by initials, but I think most of us know who they are.   Is this a situation where, in general, we all know it's against the strict letter of the law (i.e., FHSAA rules), but enough good -- or at least enough perceived good -- comes out of the situation, so we choose to just let it slide?   

It looks like I've raised a half-dozen or so questions . . . feel free to answer any or all.  I'd love to get the thoughts of those folks on this board who have a public school background (attended/coached/currently have kids attending/etc.), as well as those who can bring a private school perspective to the table.   

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1 hour ago, Perspective said:

So, what do we think about a system where athletically talented kids of color are subtly (or not so subtly) 'invited' to attend schools that, in all likelihood, they would not be able to afford (and likely wouldn't really want to attend anyway) but for the opportunity to play sports?  And before I go any further, I'll apologize in advance for the over-generalizations and lack of caveats used in this post.  I'm trying to paint a realistic picture, but I'm only using a couple of colors. 

Clearly, kids are getting financial assistance (in some/many cases, full scholarships) based primarily/exclusively on their athletic talent.  According to FHSAA rules, this is not allowed.   But look back at the comments in this thread.  Everyone seems to believe/understand that it is going on.  And I'm not picking on Columbus.   This goes on in private schools everywhere.   Does the rule need to be changed?   Why is everyone willing to turn their heads to this system of apparent violations?   Is it because there is a sentiment that the minority kids who attend private schools to play football are getting a better education in a better environment than they otherwise would be getting -- and that makes everything OK?  

Let's look at this from another angle.   Why do the schools do it?  Do they feel better about themselves as educators -- and as people -- if in their minds, they can provide a 'Blind Side' opportunity to kids who have athletic talent but who might otherwise get lost in the public school shuffle?  Or do they simply do it because the alums/parents/administrators at those schools cherish their state championships and know that they're considerably less likely to hoist the trophy without the speed/athleticism that the scholarship kids bring? 

Best I can tell, this is a state-wide phenomenon.  I could start listing schools in South Florida, Ft. Lauderdale, the Tampa Bay area, Jacksonville, etc. by name or simply by initials, but I think most of us know who they are.   Is this a situation where, in general, we all know it's against the strict letter of the law (i.e., FHSAA rules), but enough good -- or at least enough perceived good -- comes out of the situation, so we choose to just let it slide?   

It looks like I've raised a half-dozen or so questions . . . feel free to answer any or all.  I'd love to get the thoughts of those folks on this board who have a public school background (attended/coached/currently have kids attending/etc.), as well as those who can bring a private school perspective to the table.   

I agree with you entire post. Working in a public school in Miami-Dade, it's frustrating when you have a two or three year starter and then Columbus, STA, Gulliver, or AHP come in and take your skill position players for their senior year. 

However, with the recent rule changes where athletes are free to transfer, public schools have gotten in on the action. MNW, BTW, Central all recruit players from all over the area, so it has leveled the playing field some. 

Private schools can still offer a better educational environment, which parents love, and that's hard to argue against. 

But to your point, private schools would not be handing out scholarships if you couldn't contribute to their teams. I don't think the FHSAA can regulate how scholarships are handed out in high school.

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3 hours ago, Miamidade92 said:

I agree with you entire post. Working in a public school in Miami-Dade, it's frustrating when you have a two or three year starter and then Columbus, STA, Gulliver, or AHP come in and take your skill position players for their senior year. 

However, with the recent rule changes where athletes are free to transfer, public schools have gotten in on the action. MNW, BTW, Central all recruit players from all over the area, so it has leveled the playing field some. 

Private schools can still offer a better educational environment, which parents love, and that's hard to argue against. 

But to your point, private schools would not be handing out scholarships if you couldn't contribute to their teams. I don't think the FHSAA can regulate how scholarships are handed out in high school.

You obviously understand the situation. Yes,  private/parochial schools do de-facto recruit. In fact all private schools recruit. Private schools are all businesses and they have to recruit most students otherwise they would have to close their doors. Their recruiting is not biased as they need to fill up their classrooms with paying customers. They are not like public schools where they have students assigned by residence and where they are not in business to make money. It is true that private schools do admit students that receive some funding from the government in the form of a grant. However, all students are not eligible and it only pays for a part of the tuition. The private schools rarely give out full tuition paid scholarships. If we want to talk about recruiting it is not just private schools that are doing it. It's the public schools with all of their "dedicated transfers" from public to public and private to public. All of the top teams, both public and private, get transfers and recruits every preseason. I just feel bad for the poor kids that are forced to the bench to make way for a transfer or recruit.

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4 hours ago, Miamidade92 said:

But to your point, private schools would not be handing out scholarships if you couldn't contribute to their teams. I don't think the FHSAA can regulate how scholarships are handed out in high school.

I think the FHSAA would beg to differ with you (at least in terms of what they have the ability to regulate).  This comes from the FHSAA football manual:

36.1.5 Financial Assistance Permissible. Private schools, as well as developmental research schools operated by state universities, may administer school-based financial assistance programs for students who attend those schools. Financial assistance must be totally unrelated to a student’s athletic interest, potential or performance. Financial assistance based even partially on a student’s athletic interest, potential or performance is not permitted.

(Emphasis added).

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1 hour ago, Perspective said:

I think the FHSAA would beg to differ with you (at least in terms of what they have the ability to regulate).  This comes from the FHSAA football manual:

36.1.5 Financial Assistance Permissible. Private schools, as well as developmental research schools operated by state universities, may administer school-based financial assistance programs for students who attend those schools. Financial assistance must be totally unrelated to a student’s athletic interest, potential or performance. Financial assistance based even partially on a student’s athletic interest, potential or performance is not permitted.

(Emphasis added).

I agree with you, I guess what I meant was the FHSAA has no way of proving what we all know, or has no interest in doing so. 

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9 hours ago, Perspective said:

Clearly, kids are getting financial assistance (in some/many cases, full scholarships) based primarily/exclusively on their athletic talent.  According to FHSAA rules, this is not allowed.   But look back at the comments in this thread.  Everyone seems to believe/understand that it is going on.  And I'm not picking on Columbus.   This goes on in private schools everywhere.   Does the rule need to be changed?   Why is everyone willing to turn their heads to this system of apparent violations?   Is it because there is a sentiment that the minority kids who attend private schools to play football are getting a better education in a better environment than they otherwise would be getting -- and that makes everything OK?  

Check out some of the famous alumni from St Thomas Aquinas.  No doubt some of these people know people of influence in the political realm. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Thomas_Aquinas_High_School_(Florida)

The Archbishop of Miami is the face of the Catholic Church in south FL, and there is a huge Catholic contingent in south FL. Can you imagine how politically important he is to the politicians down there?

That said, how much do you think politicians want to poke at the Archdiocese of Miami, recognizing it is important to the survival of their schools(or at least perceived to be) to have the marketing edge of great football programs.  

I am convinced a lot of what we are seeing today is about marketing.  Good students don't bring notoriety to high schools in the news, but good football teams sure do.  Back in the 80's and before, mention St Thomas Aquinas to somebody on the West Coast and nobody knew who were were talking about. Now, because of their football team, people from all over the country know who they are.  It's incredible advertising...no different than what colleges do.  

From what I understand, some of the Catholic schools had financial issues back in the day.  Archbishop Curley and Chaminade were both all boys schools who merged with their sister schools back in the 80's.  Back then, people assumed all of the the private schools were dripping with money, but that was not completely true.  I got to see the facilities of one of the "rich" private south FL private schools back in the day and was shocked at how primitive they were.  

I believe these schools were forced to start marketing themselves very aggressively when demographics started changing rapidly in south FL.   And part of the marketing plan included raising the visibility of their sports programs...something the priests probably didn't care much about when they were running the show at those schools. The private schools started bringing in non-religious administrators to help them run the schools more like real businesses.  I just read that one of the Catholic "powerhouse" schools currently have their first non-clergy President ever.  There is a message there. 

 

 

  

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On 5/6/2020 at 4:06 PM, OldSchoolLion said:

According to one internet source, 2% of Columbus' student body, or are about 30 boys at the school, are AA.   I guess it is just an incredible coincidence that most of those 30 are on the varsity football team.  I am sure it has nothing to do with certain private schools giving priority to minority football players when it comes to handing out financial aid...as opposed to academically deserving minority students who don't happen to play football.   

 

 

 

No doubt. At the high school level, there's lots of benevolence towards low income people and minorities...as long as they're really fucking good at sports.

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On 5/7/2020 at 12:08 PM, Perspective said:

I think the FHSAA would beg to differ with you (at least in terms of what they have the ability to regulate).  This comes from the FHSAA football manual:

36.1.5 Financial Assistance Permissible. Private schools, as well as developmental research schools operated by state universities, may administer school-based financial assistance programs for students who attend those schools. Financial assistance must be totally unrelated to a student’s athletic interest, potential or performance. Financial assistance based even partially on a student’s athletic interest, potential or performance is not permitted.

(Emphasis added).

So, how does one prove the assistance was/wasn't based on athletic ability?

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7 hours ago, skyway said:

So, how does one prove the assistance was/wasn't based on athletic ability?

I guess you just have to ask the schools and the players . . . knowing, of course, that you'll always get an honest answer from both.  B)

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Here's the President of Columbus, appointed last year.  Check out his credentials  In the past, the leaders of the Catholic schools were religious leaders.  Now, it's all about marketing and fundraising.  

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/education/article229328119.html

...extensive experience in management, strategic planning, finance, and marketing.

A strong fundraiser and networker....

....held positions in financial planning and marketing with the Walt Disney Company...

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