Competitive balance?

[Dr. D]

The driving force behind the change to the Metro-Suburban classification was promoting "competitive balance".  One way to evaluate this claim is to see how many regional finalists this year were regional finalists last year as well.  "Repeat" regional finalists:

4M:  3/8;      3M:  4/8;      2M:  4/8;      1M:  4/8;       Total Metro repeaters:  15 out of 32

4S:  2/8;      3S:  0/8;      2S:  3/8;      1S:  5/8;     Total Suburban repeaters:  10 out of 32

Overall, 39 out of 64 regional finalists this year are new compared to last year.  Suburban supporters would say that reclassification gave more teams a chance to qualify and advance in the playoffs.  Metro supporters would say that only the same handful of teams in each classification are true title contenders, and the other 25-30 teams in the classification are just along for the ride, so what was the point?  Guess it depends which side of the fence you are on....   

[nolebull813]

This playoff system has been a disaster so far. 
 

some of these teams about to be in the state semi finals in the suburban districts would never have even sniffed it this far had it been back the old way. 

it’s doing exactly what it intended. it’s given teams that would never win a title a water down chance to go farther than they would ever go in an old system

no disrespect @ColumbiaHighFan2017class but Choctaw or Columbia making a state semi finals in one of the larger classes is a travesty. I know how Columbia has done it once before in the last 20 years but this is an embarrassment of a new system

[nolebull813]

Palmer Trinity against true North Classical for a spot in the state semi finals?? 
 

come on man!!!!!!!!!!

[Joshua Wilson]

I respectfully disagree @nolebull813. The biggest thing is here is open enrollment which was NOT an issue 15-20 years ago. That is a massive issue in larger areas teams can get really good and keep adding talent and then when you get that matchup between two similar sized schools in a state championship with one from South Florida and one from where ever in North or Central Florida, there is a mismatch. 

Please tell me how a team like Suwannee who has 1,112 students and Miami Central who has 1,396 students are on the same leveled playing? They are not. No way they are not. You cannot even compare a rural-type school in Suwannee to a Miami Central in the middle of Miami. There is no comparison. It is night and day between the two.

[PinellasFB]

3 minutes ago, Joshua Wilson said:

I respectfully disagree @nolebull813. The biggest thing is here is open enrollment which was NOT an issue 15-20 years ago. That is a massive issue in larger areas teams can get really good and keep adding talent and then when you get that matchup between two similar sized schools in a state championship with one from South Florida and one from where ever in North or Central Florida, there is a mismatch. 

Please tell me how a team like Suwannee who has 1,112 students and Miami Central who has 1,396 students are on the same leveled playing? They are not. No way they are not. You cannot even compare a rural-type school in Suwannee to a Miami Central in the middle of Miami. There is no comparison. It is night and day between the two.

To further this point, I think it was also a great way for public contenders to get away from playing private schools in the playoffs since most of the high-level private school programs seem to be in the metro areas.  Of course this comes at the expense of any public schools in the metro areas who now have to deal with private schools in their district whereas before they were in a different classification.  I've watched some public programs in Pinellas take advantage of open enrollment and rip some other teams apart with stealing players.  Some schools, in particular, are openly predatory and seem to have no ethics regarding this issue.   It's a dead horse issue and I'm preaching to the choir here but it still feels good to vent.

[DisabledAccount]

9 minutes ago, PinellasFB said:

To further this point, I think it was also a great way for public contenders to get away from playing private schools in the playoffs since most of the high-level private school programs seem to be in the metro areas.  Of course this comes at the expense of any public schools in the metro areas who now have to deal with private schools in their district whereas before they were in a different classification.  I've watched some public programs in Pinellas take advantage of open enrollment and rip some other teams apart with stealing players.  Some schools, in particular, are openly predatory and seem to have no ethics regarding this issue.   It's a dead horse issue and I'm preaching to the choir here but it still feels good to vent.

Well Miami Central and Northwestern are no different than any private school in Florida when it comes to having a competitive advantage with open enrollment

 

They can recruit just as easily

[PinellasFB]

9 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Well Miami Central and Northwestern are no different than any private school in Florida when it comes to having a competitive advantage with open enrollment

 

They can recruit just as easily

The problem in metro areas is the schools are so close to each other that players can easily move around teams, especially when they reach driving age.  

[DisabledAccount]

7 minutes ago, PinellasFB said:

The problem in metro areas is the schools are so close to each other that players can easily move around teams, especially when they reach driving age.  

Exactly my point

 

And since private schools like STA, Chaminade, Cardinal Gibbons, etc are not boarding schools any kid wanting to go there has to provide their own transportation anyway so under the current rules a school like Miami Central has the same ability to recruit as STA which is why it makes sense to separate METROS not PRIVATES

[PinellasFB]

2 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Exactly my point

 

And since private schools like STA, Chaminade, Cardinal Gibbons, etc are not boarding schools any kid wanting to go there has to provide their own transportation anyway so under the current rules a school like Miami Central has the same ability to recruit as STA which is why it makes sense to separate METROS not PRIVATES

For every school like MC or MNW, you will have 50+ metro schools that lose players.  It's always the majority feeding the minority.  The metro-suburban classification hurts way more metro public schools than it doesn't hurt.  

[DisabledAccount]

3 minutes ago, PinellasFB said:

For every school like MC or MNW, you will have 50+ metro schools that lose players.  It's always the majority feeding the minority.  The metro-suburban classification hurts way more metro public schools than it doesn't hurt.  

Well if you don't separate them you basically are just handing these teams titles against teams who can't compete 

[Perspective]

1 hour ago, PinellasFB said:

 Some schools, in particular, are openly predatory and seem to have no ethics regarding this issue. 

Can you please explain what you mean by this?   Feel free to name names. 

[Perspective]

54 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Well Miami Central and Northwestern are no different than any private school in Florida when it comes to having a competitive advantage with open enrollment

 

They can recruit just as easily

How can they recruit?

[Perspective]

35 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Exactly my point

 

And since private schools like STA, Chaminade, Cardinal Gibbons, etc are not boarding schools any kid wanting to go there has to provide their own transportation anyway so under the current rules a school like Miami Central has the same ability to recruit as STA which is why it makes sense to separate METROS not PRIVATES

How do any of these teams have the "ability to recruit?"

[DisabledAccount]

2 hours ago, nolebull813 said:

This playoff system has been a disaster so far. 
 

some of these teams about to be in the state semi finals in the suburban districts would never have even sniffed it this far had it been back the old way. 

it’s doing exactly what it intended. it’s given teams that would never win a title a water down chance to go farther than they would ever go in an old system

no disrespect @ColumbiaHighFan2017class but Choctaw or Columbia making a state semi finals in one of the larger classes is a travesty. I know how Columbia has done it once before in the last 20 years but this is an embarrassment of a new system

And they have actually done it TWICE in last 20 years nolebullshit

 

Get your facts right!

[DisabledAccount]

Just now, Perspective said:

How do any of these teams have the "ability to recruit?"

1) players poaching players on other teams during 7v7 

 

2) coaches texting parents who have some "honor code" to not report it 

 

3) coaches hiring parents for the sole purpose of getting their kid to come to them 

 

Just off the top of my head

[Perspective]

2 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

1) players poaching players on other teams during 7v7 

 

2) coaches texting parents who have some "honor code" to not report it 

 

3) coaches hiring parents for the sole purpose of getting their kid to come to them 

 

Just off the top of my head

Then that means that every team in the state has the "ability to recruit."  That's kind of like saying that everyone on this Board has the "ability to steal."  I'm sure these things (the things that you mentioned off the top of your head) happen, but what you're really saying is that some schools are cheating more than others and/or certain schools are doing a better job of getting away with it.  

@Joshua Wilson, do you have any idea how many "recruiting cases" have come before the FHSAA in the last year?  I'd be interested to see the breakdown of where those allegations come from:  anonymous reports?  self-reports?  reported by rivals?   Is there any way to get this information without going through the time, trouble and potential expense of doing a public records request?

[Joshua Wilson]

20 minutes ago, Perspective said:

Then that means that every team in the state has the "ability to recruit."  That's kind of like saying that everyone on this Board has the "ability to steal."  I'm sure these things (the things that you mentioned off the top of your head) happen, but what you're really saying is that some schools are cheating more than others and/or certain schools are doing a better job of getting away with it.  

@Joshua Wilson, do you have any idea how many "recruiting cases" have come before the FHSAA in the last year?  I'd be interested to see the breakdown of where those allegations come from:  anonymous reports?  self-reports?  reported by rivals?   Is there any way to get this information without going through the time, trouble and potential expense of doing a public records request?

There have been a few the FHSAA has gone after, but the numbers and a breakdown you are asking for would take going through a public records request and something I do not have the funds for at this time (wish I could get this info, but currently more worried about trying to keep a roof over my head at the moment). 

[Perspective]

7 minutes ago, Joshua Wilson said:

There have been a few the FHSAA has gone after, but the numbers and a breakdown you are asking for would take going through a public records request and something I do not have the funds for at this time (wish I could get this info, but currently more worried about trying to keep a roof over my head at the moment). 

I totally understand where you're coming from.  

Also, from my experience, the FHSAA tends to get a little defensive when someone seeks out this kind of information.   It's almost as if they know/feel that they'll end up being the target of criticism (i.e., "the FHSAA doesn't do enough to curb rampant recruiting" or "the FHSAA knows what's going on, but they don't do anything about it" or "the FHSAA knows that recruiting is going on, but they choose not to pursue the matter because they're afraid/concerned someone's going to get their panties in a wad and take away what little autonomy and authority they have"). 

You're a business man and you have every right to protect your business interests.  It makes all the sense in the world, to me at least, that you would want to stay on the FHSAA's good side.   Dang, where are Woodward and Bernstein when we need them?   

Thanks for the reply. 

[nolebull813]

2 hours ago, Joshua Wilson said:

I respectfully disagree @nolebull813. The biggest thing is here is open enrollment which was NOT an issue 15-20 years ago. That is a massive issue in larger areas teams can get really good and keep adding talent and then when you get that matchup between two similar sized schools in a state championship with one from South Florida and one from where ever in North or Central Florida, there is a mismatch. 

Please tell me how a team like Suwannee who has 1,112 students and Miami Central who has 1,396 students are on the same leveled playing? They are not. No way they are not. You cannot even compare a rural-type school in Suwannee to a Miami Central in the middle of Miami. There is no comparison. It is night and day between the two.

Miami Central is essentially being punished in that scenario because football talent is much better in Miami than Live Oak. 

[DisabledAccount]

Just now, nolebull813 said:

Miami Central is essentially being punished in that scenario because football talent is much better in Miami than Live Oak. 

But you just admitted that the talent isn't even remotely close to "level" by enrollment like you claimed so you literally just proved WHY they NEEDED TO CHANGE IT

[nolebull813]

Choctaw or Columbia making the state semis while Cardinal Gibbons or AHP is sitting home doesn’t sit right with me. That’s proof the system doesn’t work. 
 

A state top 7 team at home while a state 37-57 is playing the semis!!!

[DisabledAccount]

51 minutes ago, Perspective said:

Then that means that every team in the state has the "ability to recruit."  That's kind of like saying that everyone on this Board has the "ability to steal."  I'm sure these things (the things that you mentioned off the top of your head) happen, but what you're really saying is that some schools are cheating more than others and/or certain schools are doing a better job of getting away with it.  

@Joshua Wilson, do you have any idea how many "recruiting cases" have come before the FHSAA in the last year?  I'd be interested to see the breakdown of where those allegations come from:  anonymous reports?  self-reports?  reported by rivals?   Is there any way to get this information without going through the time, trouble and potential expense of doing a public records request?

Yes that's exactly what I'm saying

 

And as a result of these cheaters you take any chance to try and force these teams together to protect the overall competitive balance of the state 

 

The same people who whine about blowouts in the state finals are not realizing this system is trying to address it 

[DisabledAccount]

Just now, nolebull813 said:

Choctaw or Columbia making the state semis while Cardinal Gibbons or AHP is sitting home doesn’t sit right with me. That’s proof the system doesn’t work. 
 

A state top 7 team at home while a state 37-57 is playing the semis!!!

That could have happened before

 

Did you forget these 2 shared a district in the mid 2010s?

 

Your attempt there doesn't hold up 

[DisabledAccount]

1 minute ago, nolebull813 said:

Choctaw or Columbia making the state semis while Cardinal Gibbons or AHP is sitting home doesn’t sit right with me. That’s proof the system doesn’t work. 
 

A state top 7 team at home while a state 37-57 is playing the semis!!!

In fact In the old system they would have MET IN ROUND 2 

 

So you would have tons of teams advancing to round 3 much weaker than them in the old system 

 

Great teams being grouped with great teams tends to do that

[nolebull813]

1 minute ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

But you just admitted that the talent isn't even remotely close to "level" by enrollment like you claimed so you literally just proved WHY they NEEDED TO CHANGE IT

No what I’m saying is Live Oak needs to get better. Teams in Miami are being punished for some of them being good and rural North FL team are being rewarded for mediocrity.  
 

the point is you don’t separate teams just because one team has more success and is better. Unless you aren’t watering  it down during a split. I get bad teams not playing top teams but don’t split it. We don’t need 9 classes. 6 at most