Competitive balance?

[DisabledAccount]

3 minutes ago, nolebull813 said:

So you are admitting it. The state just watered down the playoff brackets even more than it already has been because some teams in metropolitan areas have had too much success so they have to keep making participation trophies for others that haven’t earned it to feel better

Your the one who whines about blowouts in the state finals every year but can't see that it doesn't matter what system or how many classes or any other change is made will never make Miami Central vs Baker County or Suwannee or Columbia a matchup that has ANY prayer of being competitive

[Perspective]

10 minutes ago, PinellasFB said:

I've always wondered why these private schools want to win so badly that they invest so heavily in athletics?  Does this somehow improve their enrollment by generating more applications?  Why does Jesuit here in Tampa, for example, want to win state championships in each sport enough to pay the tuition for great players who would never attend their school otherwise?  What is the incentive for these private schools?

In my opinion, "school pride."  School pride pays dividends for private schools like Jesuit when it comes to alumni giving. 

Historically, when a college football team wins a national championship or a college basketball team makes it to the Final Four, alumni giving and enrollment applications both increase notably over the next couple of years.  I believe the same to be true for private high schools.  When your alma mater has notable success on the field or court, you feel good about your alma mater.  Those good feelings translate into increased giving, which then allows the school to provide more scholarships for 'deserving students' who wouldn't otherwise be able to afford the tuition.   That's what keeps the machine rolling along.  It happens at Jesuit, Bolles, STA, and several other schools across the state. 

[Perspective]

20 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Earned it? How the hell is any team realistically supposed to keep up with teams that can recruit from a county of 3m people?

 

So what you have to hang with a top 5 nationally ranked team who can recruit all of Dade county just to call yourself a champion? What kind of bullshit is that?!!

In theory, the team from the county of 3 million people has a significantly greater number of competing schools in the area.  Seriously, who else does Columbia "compete with" for student-athletes that want to take advantage of school choice to attend whatever school they want to?   Riverside, maybe.   Who else?  

Compare that to Miami Central.  According to the Miami-Dade County Public School website, there are 64 public high schools serving the kids of Miami-Dade.  Not all of them are traditional high schools and/or have sports teams, but a whole bunch of them do.  So MC is competing with Northwestern, Norland, BTW, Hialeah, Homestead, Edison, Jackson, Killian, and several others, including private schools, for the top-caliber athletes.  In a perfect world, each school would get their fair share of top athletes.   But we don't live in a perfect world.  

If we went back to school districts (yeah, I know, that ain't happening any time soon) and enforced the rules, things would be a little different.   But in this world of school choice, a handful of teams in any given area will continue to have success.  Sure, every now and then a school will have a perfect storm of retained kids, coaching and parent support and may have the chance to jump from the "have nots" to the "haves."   But that will be rare and likely won't be permanent.  My prediction is that, now more than ever, we're going to see the same top teams having success, making the playoffs and winning state titles, year after year, especially in the metro areas. 

[nolebull813]

Suburban Venice destroyed 3 straight Metro teams last year to win the title. Can someone tell me how that happened with the metro teams being in a huge populated areas able to stockpile talent. How did it happen?

[nolebull813]

The issue is, and always will be the amount of classes you have. I don’t have a problem with metro and suburban as long as it’s not water down. But it is. Realistically there should only be five classes in the state. There is only about 500 teams playing varsity football not including any independent or SSAC teams. 
 

100 teams per class can go back to 16 districts per class with an average of 6 to 8 teams per district. What’s wrong with that?

[VeniceIndianFan]

Cut down from 9 to 7 or 6 classes. Combine classes 1R, 2S, and 3S to create one class and leave the others as they are. Increase districts from 3 teams to no fewer than 4 but no more than 7. Keep Metro/Suburban classifications and bring back RPI in some fashion. No 1-9 or 0-10 teams making the playoffs as runnerups in garbage districts. Only the winner deserves to have a guaranteed spot in the postseason. Others must earn their spot through earning it with a winning record.

[anonimis]

Cut down to 1 class. As long as there are multiple state champions, there are no state champions.

Smaller tournaments for teams not in the state tournament could work.  Different tournaments for metro, suburban, rural, public, private, etc.

[VeniceIndianFan]

35 minutes ago, anonimis said:

Cut down to 1 class. As long as there are multiple state champions, there are no state champions.

Smaller tournaments for teams not in the state tournament could work.  Different tournaments for metro, suburban, rural, public, private, etc.

Why not have each state champion play each other in sort of a bowl series, to determine the true state champion?

[anonimis]

35 minutes ago, VeniceIndiansFootball said:

Why not have each state champion play each other in sort of a bowl series, to determine the true state champion?

It adds 3 more weeks to the season for the sake of 8 teams.  I think time could be better spent.  Currently, all the state championship caliber teams play a bunch of blowout games that are a waste of everyone's time.  Cut back on those mismatch games.

 

Examples from the current top 5 (excluding IMG):

Miami Central vs St. Brendan: 60-0

Miami Central vs Norland: 53-7

Chaminade vs Somserset Academy Key: 90-0

Chaminade vs Avant Garde Academy: 63-0

Chaminade vs SJPII Academy: 63-0

Edgewater vs Horizon: 54-0

Edgewater vs First Coast: 57-6

STA vs Boyd Anderson: 44-0

STA vs Coconut Creek: 59-14

STA vs Atlantic: 63-14

Lakeland vs Lake Gibson: 49-0

Lakeland vs George Jenkins: 49-0

 

[Perspective]

2 minutes ago, anonimis said:

It adds 3 more weeks to the season for the sake of 8 teams.  I think time could be better spent.  Currently, all the state championship caliber teams play a bunch of blowout games that are a waste of everyone's time.  Cut back on those mismatch games.

 

Examples from the current top 5 (excluding IMG):

Miami Central vs St. Brendan: 60-0

Miami Central vs Norland: 53-7

Chaminade vs Somserset Academy Key: 90-0

Chaminade vs Avant Garde Academy: 63-0

Chaminade vs SJPII Academy: 63-0

Edgewater vs Horizon: 54-0

Edgewater vs First Coast: 57-6

STA vs Boyd Anderson: 44-0

STA vs Coconut Creek: 59-14

STA vs Atlantic: 63-14

Lakeland vs Lake Gibson: 49-0

Lakeland vs George Jenkins: 49-0

 

While I understand your point, ask the FHSAA and the booster clubs of MC, Chaminade, Edgewater, STA and Lakeland if they think those blowout games are a waste of time.  Between the gate receipts, parking revenue, and concession stand sales, I'm guessing there are several thousand reasons why those early games, blowout as they may be, are still important for somebody. 

[anonimis]

14 minutes ago, Perspective said:

While I understand your point, ask the FHSAA and the booster clubs of MC, Chaminade, Edgewater, STA and Lakeland if they think those blowout games are a waste of time.  Between the gate receipts, parking revenue, and concession stand sales, I'm guessing there are several thousand reasons why those early games, blowout as they may be, are still important for somebody. 

I hadn't considered your point and its valid, so I went back to see how many of those games were state scheduled vs school scheduled.  To my surprise, all of them were either district games or playoff games.  I'm still asking if there is a somebody and if so, who is it?  A booster's kid gets some playing time?  I assume the bigger matchups would have to bring in more gate receipts, parking revenue, and concession stand sales money.  I know that's the argument for Northwestern Central State Tech vs Bama, but is it worth it at the HS level?

[DisabledAccount]

2 hours ago, nolebull813 said:

The issue is, and always will be the amount of classes you have. I don’t have a problem with metro and suburban as long as it’s not water down. But it is. Realistically there should only be five classes in the state. There is only about 500 teams playing varsity football not including any independent or SSAC teams. 
 

100 teams per class can go back to 16 districts per class with an average of 6 to 8 teams per district. What’s wrong with that?

Like I said already I would have no problem using metro suburban and turning it into 3 suburban/rural and 3 metro classes 

 

 

[BigBoyBall]

So VENICE you are saying to combine the classes and have a school with 400 students play against schools with 1000-1300 students? Remember, many of the 1R schools are middle-high schools so they rely on 8th graders just to fill a complete team.

[VeniceIndianFan]

2 minutes ago, BigBoyBall said:

So VENICE you are saying to combine the classes and have a school with 400 students play against schools with 1000-1300 students? Remember, many of the 1R schools are middle-high schools so they rely on 8th graders just to fill a complete team.

The 11 kids on the field are more important than the sum of who you have in your school. The problem is that when you have 8 or 9 classes with open transfer policy, you get a situation where schools like Trenton and Union County have to compete with Madison County for a chance at a state championship. By cutting the number of classes and putting more teams in each class you increase the likelihood that a better football team will step up to the plate to challenge schools that have had "championship monopolies" for years. Just look at 2M this season. Central, AHP, Gibbons, and Northwestern have to compete against each other for a SC instead of being split up (although MNW lost already.) For the first time in years, Columbia and Naples both have chances at a state championship instead of being lumped in with the South Florida bloodhounds. 1A has finally been somewhat competitive. Venice, Osceola, and Lakeland no longer have to play STA to get a state championship. That is what the Metro/Suburban split has done for football and an example of why more teams in each class is so important. Almost all of the big South Florida recipients of transfers, or "cheaters," as some people like to call them, are in 2M with the exception of STA and Columbus. That alone makes HSFB better.

[cribboy305]

6 hours ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Earned it? How the hell is any team realistically supposed to keep up with teams that can recruit from a county of 3m people?

 

So what you have to hang with a top 5 nationally ranked team who can recruit all of Dade county just to call yourself a champion? What kind of bullshit is that?!!

Okay lets stop the craziness right here, it’s not 3 million kids in innercity miami. I mean are you hearing yourself? Wouldn’t you wanna beat the best, it’s no different than central smashing baker county. The classes way too watered down & I stressed preseason how it was unfair to the metro counties because all metros aint coming like dade & broward. It was intentional We kno it was designed for teams the suburban teams who couldn’t get better but what about teams like lakeland & seminole who always competed? its lame, teams have to get better. They making the playoffs look weak all the better teams at home. is what it is though

[DisabledAccount]

16 minutes ago, cribboy305 said:

Okay lets stop the craziness right here, it’s not 3 million kids in innercity miami. I mean are you hearing yourself? Wouldn’t you wanna beat the best, it’s no different than central smashing baker county. The classes way too watered down & I stressed preseason how it was unfair to the metro counties because all metros aint coming like dade & broward. It was intentional We kno it was designed for teams the suburban teams who couldn’t get better but what about teams like lakeland & seminole who always competed? its lame, teams have to get better. They making the playoffs look weak all the better teams at home. is what it is though

Polk County has 700k+ people

 

Baker County has 28k people

 

Are you really trying to say Baker County in that 28k county population has 30-40 FBS players to compete with Central? It doesn't matter if they played the top 10 nationally ranked teams for 10 years straight, they will never just get enough jimmy and Joes to suddenly compete with a team that is pulling from the deepest talent pool in the entire country 

 

So Jacksonville don't get transfers? I literally proved this a year ago

 

Are you hearing yourself?

[DisabledAccount]

For comparison

 

Columbia in order to come close to matching Miami Central in FBS players would have to get ALL the FBS players in Columbia, Suwannee, Hamilton, Madison, Gilchrist, Baker, Union, Bradford and probably Alachua County to just COME CLOSE to the same level of talent 

 

But somehow that means we are on a level playing field when Miami Central has gotten over 20 transfers FIVE STRAIGHT YEARS, most of whom are FBS level players

 

It's not about "competing with good teams" it's about "trying to face teams who actually can play by similar rules" and thanks to the stupid people that keep getting elected at the state level to preserve "privatizing education" and "school choice" YOU WILL NEVER HAVE A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD with counties of over 1M people Sharing a class with counties of less than 50k 

 

It's not realistic, feasible or honest 

[Joshua Wilson]

21 hours ago, nolebull813 said:

So you are admitting it. The state just watered down the playoff brackets even more than it already has been because some teams in metropolitan areas have had too much success so they have to keep making participation trophies for others that haven’t earned it to feel better

Watered down? Looking at this week's games, they are mostly competitive matchups outside a couple of games. Are we really serious that we are going to say this is watered down? Of course we could be like New Jersey and hand out 20 plus titles a year. We could be like them.

[nolebull813]

41 minutes ago, Joshua Wilson said:

Watered down? Looking at this week's games, they are mostly competitive matchups outside a couple of games. Are we really serious that we are going to say this is watered down? Of course we could be like New Jersey and hand out 20 plus titles a year. We could be like them.

Pennsylvania has more teams than Florida and only has 6 classifications. They have power privates from big cities too who get transfers. But they make shit happen. There is no justification to have more than 6 classes. Other than the FHSAA making playoff gate money. 

[Perspective]

In related news, the NCAA just concluded a press conference in which it was announced that, for the sport of football only, they are dividing the D-1 schools up into two classes:  "S" and "M."   The "S" will stand for "Southeastern" and will include all of the teams from the Southeastern Conference, along with and handful of teams from the ACC (most notably, Clemson and Florida State).   The "M" will stand for "Mediocre,"  and will include all other D-1 programs. 

In response to questions from the media, NCAA spokesman Ralph Johnson stated: 

"The time was right to do this.  We've been receiving complaints year after year from teams up north, in the midwest, and especially out west, that they just can't compete with the teams from the South.  The only school that hasn't complained much is Ohio State - and lately Michigan has been pretty quiet."

When asked to elaborate, Johnson added:  "Every year we get emails from all these schools up north and out west that the teams in the South always recruit the better players and always end up with the better teams.   Of course, we remind them that they are allowed to recruit those same gifted athletes, but they don't seem to understand that. So, rather than listen to them bitch about how they never have a chance to win a national championship, we decided to create the "M" division.   The schools in the "S" division will continue to play for the national championship of that class.  And, of course, we will continue to use the existing format and bowl games for the "S" class so that we don't get our asses sued by all of the TV networks with whom we have contracts and who want to televise the games involving the best teams and the best players.   We have reached out to ESPN in hopes that ESPN8 will be willing to televise the Class "M" championship game, which will be played at Gene Cox stadium in Tallahassee, Florida, on a Wednesday night in January."

Ohio State's athletic director, George "Bucky" Smith, also fielded questions from the media and stated:  "Hey, we've been able to compete with the teams from the South over the years, but truth be told, it's hard keeping up with those boys  on a yearly basis.   Even when we make it into the tournament, we usually end up getting our butts kicked.  We view this as an opportunity to become a dominant force in the M Class for years to come.  And, most importantly, we'll get to hold up a National Championship trophy a lot more often now, which is all our fans really care about." 

[Dan in Daytona]

Many, many, good ideas/opinions have been proposed on this thread. I like Nolebulls, Venice, and Columbia's six classes . If you're the best of "any 100 schools" you get a trophy. I also agree with Cribboy and let's allow metro's and suburban's to play "UP" like in the past so the truly best teams aren't knocked out early.  Let Miami Central, MNW, AH-P, or any school play in the bigger classes with STA or Miami Columbus. I too, like most, don't like the unlimited transfers. BUT why restrict an athlete, many of whom are disadvantaged, from movement to better increase his chances for exposure and success in the only field he excels in when other students with high academic strengths, musical talents, are other  performing arts skills can transfer to the best schools their parent's money can buy.  Columbia is also right about are current political environment. Freedom for one is freedom for all. My son is good in football. Your's is a mean saxophonist. Let them go where they want or can afford.

[Ray Icaza]

25 minutes ago, Perspective said:

In related news, the NCAA just concluded a press conference in which it was announced that, for the sport of football only, they are dividing the D-1 schools up into two classes:  "S" and "M."   The "S" will stand for "Southeastern" and will include all of the teams from the Southeastern Conference, along with and handful of teams from the ACC (most notably, Clemson and Florida State).   The "M" will stand for "Mediocre,"  and will include all other D-1 programs. 

In response to questions from the media, NCAA spokesman Ralph Johnson stated: 

"The time was right to do this.  We've been receiving complaints year after year from teams up north, in the midwest, and especially out west, that they just can't compete with the teams from the South.  The only school that hasn't complained much is Ohio State - and lately Michigan has been pretty quiet."

When asked to elaborate, Johnson added:  "Every year we get emails from all these schools up north and out west that the teams in the South always recruit the better players and always end up with the better teams.   Of course, we remind them that they are allowed to recruit those same gifted athletes, but they don't seem to understand that. So, rather than listen to them bitch about how they never have a chance to win a national championship, we decided to create the "M" division.   The schools in the "S" division will continue to play for the national championship of that class.  And, of course, we will continue to use the existing format and bowl games for the "S" class so that we don't get our asses sued by all of the TV networks with whom we have contracts and who want to televise the games involving the best teams and the best players.   We have reached out to ESPN in hopes that ESPN8 will be willing to televise the Class "M" championship game, which will be played at Gene Cox stadium in Tallahassee, Florida, on a Wednesday night in January."

Ohio State's athletic director, George "Bucky" Smith, also fielded questions from the media and stated:  "Hey, we've been able to compete with the teams from the South over the years, but truth be told, it's hard keeping up with those boys  on a yearly basis.   Even when we make it into the tournament, we usually end up getting our butts kicked.  We view this as an opportunity to become a dominant force in the M Class for years to come.  And, most importantly, we'll get to hold up a National Championship trophy a lot more often now, which is all our fans really care about." 

Actually Perspective, you are a little late to the party.  The NCAA instituted their version of M and S years ago which they apply different metrics calling them Division 1, 2 and 3.  Even within Division 1 they separate the power schools under the names FBS and FCS.  Just curious why they would do this??

[Dan in Daytona]

4 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:

Actually Perspective, you are a little late to the party.  The NCAA instituted their version of M and S years ago which they apply different metrics calling them Division 1, 2 and 3.  Even within Division 1 they separate the power schools under the names FBS and FCS.  Just curious why they would do this??

Ray, I think they call it sarcasm... tongue in cheek

[h8r]

On 11/22/2022 at 3:35 PM, nolebull813 said:

The issue is, and always will be the amount of classes you have. I don’t have a problem with metro and suburban as long as it’s not water down. But it is. Realistically there should only be five classes in the state. There is only about 500 teams playing varsity football not including any independent or SSAC teams. 
 

100 teams per class can go back to 16 districts per class with an average of 6 to 8 teams per district. What’s wrong with that?

i dont think anythings "wrong" with it.

but 

travel is a bit of a problem....

and someone on pg 2 said there isnt a difference between 2500 and 4000 kids, and those 4 or 5 schools that nobodys ever heard of

thats not the issue, 

but go to a 2500 kid school and pick out the boys, (on avg half are boys)  1250 to choose from.

if its a true 10 % of boys that play football, thats 125, compared to 200.......

but its never that many.

say its 5% play football, thats 60ish for the 2500 school and 100ish for the 4000 school.

now is there 60 dogs who can whoop on 100, absoltfreakinglootley.  happens yearly.  

but,

if im a coach, and i have 100 kids to choose from and run 9th, jv and varsity programs, and can develop those 100 kids in the weight room, the track, during the summer every year for 4 years, bet you that my 100or so kids will get gooder than your 60 or so, who probabaly play varsity and 20 or so play jv and 6qtr just to fill out the squad.

my 100 kids

i can rotate kids in at practice, i can utilize every single athlete possible at special teams, i can send a dude deep on play 1, rotate a kid in and do it on play 2, 3,4,5 and you have 1 corner, I have 5 kids that will run your db legs off 5 straight plays,  whos got the advantage???

dont think its that big a deal,

I watched miami play north carolina 1 year and miami was avg at best, but had some track stars play football(go figure right).  play 1, 4 verts, play 2, 3 verts and out, swing by rb, play 3, 4 verts, touchdown.  they changed personel, 3 times,  NC had 1 backend guy come off on play 3, as he ran 60 yds 2 plays in arow.....and they gave up  a tuddy.....why, because my jimmies and joes are better than yours.  and my back ups are 2.  my back up back ups are so much better than your 2s or 3s its crazy.  more people to choose from vs lesser, you will find 1 dude out of the pack that is pretty dang good.  

lesser classes sure,  6 is plenty.  travel is an issue if you do it right, its not.  champs and runners up make it.  winning record is a prerequeiste(sic) to making playoffs.  no 5-5, your not in.  

still dont like seeing small school in east seminole county have to go to small school on west lake county.  7pm game and leave at noon to get there in time(im kidding, but not by much).

thats why there were 8 classes before the divide by the idiots in power.  and the all mighty dollar.

 

[Ray Icaza]

8 hours ago, Dan in Daytona said:

Ray, I think they call it sarcasm... tongue in cheek

I did recognize that but isn't sarcasm or tongue in cheek used sometimes to drive home a point?