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nolebull813
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2 hours ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

The biggest problem I have with teams like Winter Park or Lake Wales is stuff like this 

 

 

https://www.maxpreps.com/fl/winter-park/winter-park-wildcats/football/schedule/

 

 

The schedule has a few bright spots of decent opponents but basically even the top half of their schedule lacks the teams that will truly tell me where they stand in the upper half of my rankings 

Ocoee and Lake Brantley should be good games I'm not sure how good Boone is nowadays. Their district isn't good at all.

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Right now, the win against North Gwinnett looks good. Hell it looks like they are the only good team on their schedule. It’s atrocious. and who knows how NG ends up. I remember years ago, Southern Cal was preseason ranked number 1 in the country and then lost 6 games that year. The first team to beat them got to brag WE BEAT THE NUMBER 1 TEAM IN THE COUNTRY!!!!!! Lol. No you didn’t. You beat a 6 loss unranked nobody. You have to let the season play out. Good wins turn into bad ones and vice versa. 

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and there has to be context calling teams “good” or “decent” etc etc. 

Lake Brantley, Ocoee and Boone are not good on a state scale. If Winter Park is supposedly a top 25 team in the state, then teams like this are not helpful in assessing that. 
 

imagine if Miami Central or STA scheduled them. People would be scratching their heads. Those would be horrible competition. But if a team like Lake Buena Vista was playing them you would say that some good, tough opponents. 
 

its all relative and always needs context 

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9 hours ago, KeemD321 said:

Ocoee and Lake Brantley should be good games I'm not sure how good Boone is nowadays. Their district isn't good at all.

Boone is similar to Winter Park competitively, so should provide them with a good test.  You are correct that they are in an extremely weak district, but to their credit they scheduled Dr. Phillips, Jones and Edgewater so I commend them on that.  Of their 2 wins, the one vs Timber Creek might reflect well going forward as that team did beat Dr. Phillips so will have to see how their season plays out as they also have scheduled some excellent teams. 

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11 hours ago, Ray Icaza said:

I have watched some of the WP games this year to see how one of our kids would perform for them.  They do seem to have a better team than last year and my reasoning for thinking the win in GA was impressive was due to the fact that they weren't expected to win.  Again, their schedule is not as challenging as they should strive for with the kind of team they have to prepare to challenge the top teams in the area for the 4M playoffs.  By the way, our kid probably our most complete returning Slot/WR that transferred there has been a difference maker.  He ran back a kick-off about 90 yards for a TD plus a punt for over 50 to the half foot line against Lake Nona plus a handful of receptions.  He then backed that up with a solid all-around performance against the Georgia team.  We knew him as ZAY,  #13 - Izaiah Jean-Baptsite.   A weapon that would have certainly benefitted us this year.

Zay has been a welcome and valuable addition to the Winter Park football team, both as a player and a teammate. He and several other WR's give the Wildcats a solid receiving group. WP, facing a big size disadvantage against North Gwinnett on the OL, turned almost exclusively to the passing game in the 2nd half on a wet and rainy day. It paid off with a 21 point 4th quarter and a victory. 

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2 hours ago, nolebull813 said:

and there has to be context calling teams “good” or “decent” etc etc. 

Lake Brantley, Ocoee and Boone are not good on a state scale. If Winter Park is supposedly a top 25 team in the state, then teams like this are not helpful in assessing that. 
 

imagine if Miami Central or STA scheduled them. People would be scratching their heads. Those would be horrible competition. But if a team like Lake Buena Vista was playing them you would say that some good, tough opponents. 
 

its all relative and always needs context 

and there has to be context calling teams “good” or “decent” etc etc. 

Lake Brantley, Ocoee and Boone are not good on a state scale. If Winter Park is supposedly a top 25 team in the state, then teams like this are not helpful in assessing that. 

The kids at Winter Park are high school student athletes, with emphasis on "student". Their coaches, with the concurrence of school administrators, scheduled a trip to Atlanta to play a highly rated team; it's expensive to travel long distances and it takes these kids away from classes that many need to attend. If WP wanted to schedule Miami Central or STA or any of the other South Florida football powers, where do you suppose those games would have to take place? MC and STA are not going to travel to play WP; they enjoy their home field advantage and would insist upon maintaining that advantage. One big trip during the season for a HS team is a great experience. A football team and its games are a valuable experience for the student population. Most underclassmen would not be able to travel around the state or Southeast to attend these "elite" games. WP schedules teams from their FHSAA assigned district and other Central Florida teams as schedules can be mutually agreed upon. Sleep on WP and teams may be surprised; there's some real talent on this year's team. 

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10 minutes ago, HornetFan said:

and there has to be context calling teams “good” or “decent” etc etc. 

Lake Brantley, Ocoee and Boone are not good on a state scale. If Winter Park is supposedly a top 25 team in the state, then teams like this are not helpful in assessing that. 

The kids at Winter Park are high school student athletes, with emphasis on "student". Their coaches, with the concurrence of school administrators, scheduled a trip to Atlanta to play a highly rated team; it's expensive to travel long distances and it takes these kids away from classes that many need to attend. If WP wanted to schedule Miami Central or STA or any of the other South Florida football powers, where do you suppose those games would have to take place? MC and STA are not going to travel to play WP; they enjoy their home field advantage and would insist upon maintaining that advantage. One big trip during the season for a HS team is a great experience. A football team and its games are a valuable experience for the student population. Most underclassmen would not be able to travel around the state or Southeast to attend these "elite" games. WP schedules teams from their FHSAA assigned district and other Central Florida teams as schedules can be mutually agreed upon. Sleep on WP and teams may be surprised; there's some real talent on this year's team. 

Nice story but what does that have to do with LB, Boone and Ocoee being good? 

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1 hour ago, nolebull813 said:

Nice story but what does that have to do with LB, Boone and Ocoee being good? 

Boone is actually ranked higher in Central Florida than WP, #5 as compared to #7. Apparently the Sports folks at the Orlando Sentinel think Boone is pretty good, so a WP victory over them would be considered a good victory. As best I have heard, these schools do not heavily recruit players away from other schools like many of your so-called "elite" teams in the state of Florida. I guess it's easier to be elite if you pilfer talent rather than take the time or effort to develop a kid. But, sometimes the real "elite" kid is the one that stands by those that developed his skills and his character.

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1 minute ago, HornetFan said:

Boone is actually ranked higher in Central Florida than WP, #5 as compared to #7. Apparently the Sports folks at the Orlando Sentinel think Boone is pretty good, so a WP victory over them would be considered a good victory. As best I have heard, these schools do not heavily recruit players away from other schools like many of your so-called "elite" teams in the state of Florida. I guess it's easier to be elite if you pilfer talent rather than take the time or effort to develop a kid. But, sometimes the real "elite" kid is the one that stands by those that developed his skills and his character.

Can you send the link that shows tangible evidence that the elite teams are out recruiting? Thank you in advance

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1 minute ago, nolebull813 said:

Can you send the link that shows tangible evidence that the elite teams are out recruiting? Thank you in advance

Anyone who closely follows HS football in Florida knows that recruiting is rampant, but no one wants to point a finger at the recruiters. Just taking one position, how many of the so-called "elite" schools in Central Florida have a junior or senior starting QB that actually attended that same school since the 9th grade?

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2 hours ago, nolebull813 said:

Nice story but what does that have to do with LB, Boone and Ocoee being good? 

This isn't my fight but consistency is worth pointing out.  What does this have to do with either Boone or Ocoee being good?  To early to tell but WE shall see, they have enough challenges to see if they are which doesn't require them to be in anyone's top 25 OPINION poll. WE being the operative word includes you.   Take Ocoee as an example; they lost to Apopka (Your #9 at the time) and only lost by 1 away from home.  You only dropped APK then to #13 before they turn around and lost to unranked West Orange where you moved them to #25.  By your own words if they couldn't beat Ocoee by 21 they don't deserve to be in the top 25, but there they sit even after losing to the unranked WO.  Again, anyone reading this should come away with the conclusion these early polls are NONSENSE just another opinion.  

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6 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:

This isn't my fight but consistency is worth pointing out.  What does this have to do with either Boone or Ocoee being good?  To early to tell but WE shall see, they have enough challenges to see if they are which doesn't require them to be in anyone's top 25 OPINION poll. WE being the operative word includes you.   Take Ocoee as an example; they lost to Apopka (Your #9 at the time) and only lost by 1 away from home.  You only dropped APK then to #13 before they turn around and lost to unranked West Orange where you moved them to #25.  By your own words if they couldn't beat Ocoee by 21 they don't deserve to be in the top 25, but there they sit even after losing to the unranked WO.  Again, anyone reading this should come away with the conclusion these early polls are NONSENSE just another opinion.  

By the way, this isn't meant to be a slight against APK as the season is still early and they have time to gel enough to be considered at top 25 or top 50 team.  These comparisons of teams that are in the top 10% or top 50 teams as opposed to the one's in the top 1% (top 5-6) to justify if they are excellent teams is asinine.  Everyone knows the top 1% will pretty much dismantle the other 99%.

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1 hour ago, Ray Icaza said:

This isn't my fight but consistency is worth pointing out.  What does this have to do with either Boone or Ocoee being good?  To early to tell but WE shall see, they have enough challenges to see if they are which doesn't require them to be in anyone's top 25 OPINION poll. WE being the operative word includes you.   Take Ocoee as an example; they lost to Apopka (Your #9 at the time) and only lost by 1 away from home.  You only dropped APK then to #13 before they turn around and lost to unranked West Orange where you moved them to #25.  By your own words if they couldn't beat Ocoee by 21 they don't deserve to be in the top 25, but there they sit even after losing to the unranked WO.  Again, anyone reading this should come away with the conclusion these early polls are NONSENSE just another opinion.  

I get what you are saying and I said they SHOULD beat them by 21 points. Should. But it’s not scientific. It’s not a prerequisite. And I’m basing this largely on history in the sense of these TYPE of teams. Teams who never make noise and don’t pose any real threat on a yearly basis. Now i know “name brand” teams like Apopka can have a bad year from time to time and “no name” teams like Wekiva can put it all together and have a special one. Who knows this could be happening with Apopka and Ocoee this year. It’s still early and no preseason poll or early season poll is gonna have it all figured out. I’m still not ready to bury Apopka. Edgewater played a bad game against Bishop Moore but then butt drilled a national powerhouse Jersey team the very next week. Night and day. It’s always evolving. 

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16 minutes ago, nolebull813 said:

I get what you are saying and I said they SHOULD beat them by 21 points. Should. But it’s not scientific. It’s not a prerequisite. And I’m basing this largely on history in the sense of these TYPE of teams. Teams who never make noise and don’t pose any real threat on a yearly basis. Now i know “name brand” teams like Apopka can have a bad year from time to time and “no name” teams like Wekiva can put it all together and have a special one. Who knows this could be happening with Apopka and Ocoee this year. It’s still early and no preseason poll or early season poll is gonna have it all figured out. I’m still not ready to bury Apopka. Edgewater played a bad game against Bishop Moore but then butt drilled a national powerhouse Jersey team the very next week. Night and day. It’s always evolving. 

Point being, 21 is a far cry from 1 yet they remained.  Spin as you may, at 2-3 weeks in they are ALL NONSENSE but will get a reaction from those left out who think they should be in.  But I suppose that is human nature.  

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3 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:

Point being, 21 is a far cry from 1 yet they remained.  Spin as you may, at 2-3 weeks in they are ALL NONSENSE but will get a reaction from those left out who think they should be in.  But I suppose that is human nature.  

SHOULD is different than HAVE TO. 
 

You don’t have to throw someone in the top 20 for one good game just like you shouldn’t automatically throw someone out for having a bad one. Case in point with Edgewater. The poor game against B Moore shouldn’t have booted them out. 

No poll is always absolute and there will ALWAYS be something to nitpick at. Apopka should beat those teams like that. They didn’t this one time vs Ocoee and that shouldn’t bar them. Losing a close one to a team (West O) who could prove to be a really good team at seasons end isn’t a terrible loss either. 

 

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1 hour ago, Ray Icaza said:

By the way, this isn't meant to be a slight against APK as the season is still early and they have time to gel enough to be considered at top 25 or top 50 team.  These comparisons of teams that are in the top 10% or top 50 teams as opposed to the one's in the top 1% (top 5-6) to justify if they are excellent teams is asinine.  Everyone knows the top 1% will pretty much dismantle the other 99%.

To the best of my memory, Apopka has been a team that starts out a little slow and builds momentum as the season progresses. I don't think they'll take offense to your using them to establish a point. I think Apopka will be heard from before the season is over. 

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5 minutes ago, HornetFan said:

To the best of my memory, Apopka has been a team that starts out a little slow and builds momentum as the season progresses. I don't think they'll take offense to your using them to establish a point. I think Apopka will be heard from before the season is over. 

Yup, it isn't about APK it's that he contradicts himself from one thread to the next.  He claimed you "SHOULDN'T" throw a team into the top 20 because of 1 good win but did exactly that with West Orange.  A simple admission that polls this early are nonsense is my point.   Admitting that they are "Evolving" tends to confirm that. 

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23 minutes ago, nolebull813 said:

SHOULD is different than HAVE TO. 
 

You don’t have to throw someone in the top 20 for one good game just like you shouldn’t automatically throw someone out for having a bad one. Case in point with Edgewater. The poor game against B Moore shouldn’t have booted them out. 

No poll is always absolute and there will ALWAYS be something to nitpick at. Apopka should beat those teams like that. They didn’t this one time vs Ocoee and that shouldn’t bar them. Losing a close one to a team (West O) who could prove to be a really good team at seasons end isn’t a terrible loss either. 

 

Edgewater and Bishop Moore is an annual "rivalry game", with both schools being within walking distance of each other. Edgewater didn't play a bad game; that game is normally a hard fought game. That being said, Edgewater is the more talented team this year and as to be expected, they won the game. Doesn't your scientific method take into account rivalry games?

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37 minutes ago, HornetFan said:

Edgewater and Bishop Moore is an annual "rivalry game", with both schools being within walking distance of each other. Edgewater didn't play a bad game; that game is normally a hard fought game. That being said, Edgewater is the more talented team this year and as to be expected, they won the game. Doesn't your scientific method take into account rivalry games?

No science. The whole rivalry thing doesn’t fly because if a bad team plays harder against their rival than why doesn’t the good team play hard against their rival?

Plus Edgewater beat them 49-6 last year. How come the “rivalry” didn’t make it closer?

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40 minutes ago, nolebull813 said:

No science. The whole rivalry thing doesn’t fly because if a bad team plays harder against their rival than why doesn’t the good team play hard against their rival?

Plus Edgewater beat them 49-6 last year. How come the “rivalry” didn’t make it closer?

Some times when teams press, bad things like fumbles and interceptions happen and games can quickly get out of control. Edgewater has the best RB in the nation, Cedric Baxter. The kid is a beast of an RB, committed to Texas, and is almost unstoppable. Neither Bishop Moore or any other team Edgewater faces this year is going to have an easy time with him. Remember the name!

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Hornet. Not to contradict you but I just looked up that Winter Park team and you idea that they are student athletes is bull crap.  I saw where they were busted for recruiting where they were putting kids up in apartments and a whole slew of violations of fhsaa.

Article below 

Winter Park High School football players ineligible after faked documentation uncovered

Students transferred from Timber Creek between spring, fall 2018

Emilee Speck, Digital journalist

Published: August 23, 2018, 6:33 PM
Tags: 

t_e7c46b200e49495d9fc43e05e715642a_name_maxresdefault.jpg

WINTER PARK, Fla. – Four high school football players have been ruled ineligible after the Florida High School Athletic Association found that their residential documents were faked in order for the students to play for Winter Park High School this school year.

According to the Florida High School Athletic Association investigation, Winter Park High School received multiple transfer students starting in the spring and fall of this year. State athletic officials said they were concerned about the nature of these student-athlete transfers and attempted to verify their eligibility to play for the school.

Two 18-year-old football players told News 6 the now ineligible students transferred from Timber Creek High School as seniors, adding that this will probably ruin their future college football careers.

Winter Park High School has received 10 other transfers this year, but those players were cleared, according to the Orlando Sentinel.

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1 hour ago, Floridaatlantic1 said:

Hornet. Not to contradict you but I just looked up that Winter Park team and you idea that they are student athletes is bull crap.  I saw where they were busted for recruiting where they were putting kids up in apartments and a whole slew of violations of fhsaa.

Article below 

Winter Park High School football players ineligible after faked documentation uncovered

Students transferred from Timber Creek between spring, fall 2018

Emilee Speck, Digital journalist

Published: August 23, 2018, 6:33 PM
Tags: 

t_e7c46b200e49495d9fc43e05e715642a_name_maxresdefault.jpg

WINTER PARK, Fla. – Four high school football players have been ruled ineligible after the Florida High School Athletic Association found that their residential documents were faked in order for the students to play for Winter Park High School this school year.

According to the Florida High School Athletic Association investigation, Winter Park High School received multiple transfer students starting in the spring and fall of this year. State athletic officials said they were concerned about the nature of these student-athlete transfers and attempted to verify their eligibility to play for the school.

Two 18-year-old football players told News 6 the now ineligible students transferred from Timber Creek High School as seniors, adding that this will probably ruin their future college football careers.

Winter Park High School has received 10 other transfers this year, but those players were cleared, according to the Orlando Sentinel.

I didn't follow Winter Park football closely in 2018: at that time, I was following my oldest grandson at Bishop Moore. I started following WP when my youngest grandson and his friends started WPHS in 2019 as freshmen. I had heard of the Timber Creek kids transfers being challenged, but i question why the coaching staff was not dismissed or at the very least disciplined if "they were busted for recruiting, where they were putting kids up in apartments and a whole slew of violations of FHSAA". Were the accusations ever verified and if so, did the FHSAA levy some form of penalty on the school's program?  I'm not aware of any disciplinary action taken against the school or football program. WPHS, as a school considered "at capacity", has restrictions against accepting transfers by students unless they live in the WP school district. I oppose recruiting because it can destroy the program at the school that they players leave.

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3 hours ago, HornetFan said:

I didn't follow Winter Park football closely in 2018: at that time, I was following my oldest grandson at Bishop Moore. I started following WP when my youngest grandson and his friends started WPHS in 2019 as freshmen. I had heard of the Timber Creek kids transfers being challenged, but i question why the coaching staff was not dismissed or at the very least disciplined if "they were busted for recruiting, where they were putting kids up in apartments and a whole slew of violations of FHSAA". Were the accusations ever verified and if so, did the FHSAA levy some form of penalty on the school's program?  I'm not aware of any disciplinary action taken against the school or football program. WPHS, as a school considered "at capacity", has restrictions against accepting transfers by students unless they live in the WP school district. I oppose recruiting because it can destroy the program at the school that they players leave.

This isn't an accusation of wrongdoing, but to be honest the reason I mentioned Zay transferring to WP was you saying they can't get transfers due to being "AT CAPACITY".  In addition, we usually understand why the player chooses to come or go but that isn't clear with him.  He has been on our varsity since his freshman year and would be starting again so that isn't the reason.  He isn't going to a program with higher exposure for recruiting purpose and if there was a beef with the staff there are a dozen schools both in Osceola and Orange that are much closer.  You see, I don't think the family has moved.  Maybe your grandson can provide some insight.  No animosity on our end as we prefer to have players that WANT to be here.

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