EXCLUSIVE: FHSAA Classification Task Force Committee proposes changes to classification system to help address competitive balance

[VeniceIndianFan]

2 hours ago, Jambun82 said:

If you don't like living in the Free State of Florida, you should consider residing in some other states that are more in-line with your "point-of-view". 

Don't dip your toe in the forbidden waters, Jambun! Sharks everywhere... Sharks everywhere you turn. 

[Floridaatlantic1]

The suburb - metro plan just helped a few elite schools in suburb territory win state instead of being runner up or semi finalists. The real solution is promotion and demotion to get same type of schools plying each other instead of blowout city. 

[Jambun82]

12 hours ago, PinellasFB said:

Bruh getting close to crossing the political line.  Please keep your personal politics on the sideline.  Obviously he doesn't like unlimited transfers because it becomes a free-for-all where students are no longer students but rent-a-players where funny business runs unabated.  It's now not uncommon where a kid transfers in the fall semester for football and then transfers elsewhere in the spring for a different sport.  School choice has always been about academics, not athletics.  These "school choices" are clearly for athletics, not academics.

I personally also don't like unlimited transfers but maybe a compromise is unlimited transfers to an equal or higher rated school so that it is still about academics?  Poorly rated schools who want transfers will then have to put all of their money into improving the academics of their school.

The only person who is going to tell me what to post or not post is Josh Wilson. Also, it is not your, nor anyone else who posts to this message board's, business where a high school student chooses to attend school. There will be no compromises on school choice, not in the FREE STATE OF FLORIDA! 

[Jambun82]

11 hours ago, VeniceIndianFan said:

Don't dip your toe in the forbidden waters, Jambun! Sharks everywhere... Sharks everywhere you turn. 

The so -called "sharks" of this message board have no effect on me at all. I am known for my knowledge and wisdom, for making great sense, for satisfying women, and for being the most knowledgeable poster on this message board on the subject of officiating by far. I know what an honor and privilege that it truly is for the other posters to the message board to hear from and speak to me!    

[Dr. D]

If this proposal was in effect this year, Miami Central would not qualify for the Open-32 Championship bracket, as they finished #33 in the final FHSAA Power Rankings.  Meanwhile, Williston (#16) would host Eau Gallie (#17) in the first round, with the right to play the winner of the Cocoa (#1)/Benjamin (#32) match-up.  Hmmm... what will the FHSAA come up with next? 

[DarterBlue2]

35 minutes ago, Dr. D said:

If this proposal was in effect this year, Miami Central would not qualify for the Open-32 Championship bracket, as they finished #33 in the final FHSAA Power Rankings.  Meanwhile, Williston (#16) would host Eau Gallie (#17) in the first round, with the right to play the winner of the Cocoa (#1)/Benjamin (#32) match-up.  Hmmm... what will the FHSAA come up with next? 

Probably something even more ridiculous. We may end up looking back at the current situation as: "The good old days." 

[Dr. D]

The classification issue is being discussed today at the FHSAA Board of Directors meeting, but no action is expected today.  If the Open-32 Championship was in effect this year, this would be the number of teams represented from each class: 

• 4M:  3
• 4S:   4
• 3M:  6
• 3S:   5
• 2M:  2
• 2S:   6
• 1M:  5
• 1S:   0
• 1R:   1

Not sure what this proves, but it would certainly make the playoffs more competitive if the top 4-6 teams are skimmed out of each classification prior to the playoffs.  But there would be 31 teams in the Open-32 who would feel they were denied a shot at a championship in their original classification.  Any changes to the classification system will have to be approved relatively soon by the FHSAA so that schedules can be set for next year.  

[Perspective]

I am not a fan of the Open-32 Championship idea.  I'd be much more in favor of an Open (fill in the number) division that teams could decide in advance of a season whether they wanted to participate in it or not. 

[nhsehs]

Transfers are the issue. Nothing wrong with kids going where they want to go, but they create the imbalance. The issue isn't public/private, metro/suburban, rich/poor. There are schools that get them and schools that don't. There needs to be a system that groups teams based on that. 

Have an Open Division, but make it based on the number of incoming transfers.

All FHSAA teams will be places into districts based on geography and enrollment (pre Metro/Suburban split). 8 classifications (Rural + 1A - 7A), 16 districts per. District champions are automatic qualifiers and the remainder of the playoff qualifiers are determined by Maxpreps ranking. At the conclusion of the regular season, the 32 teams with the highest number of incoming transfers (tracked by GA-4 forms) are placed into Open Bracket. If a district champion is moved to the Open Division, the 2nd place team becomes an At-Large qualifier, assuming they are not in the Open Division. If they are, then the 3rd place team becomes an At-Large qualifier, and so on. If there is a tie for the 32nd most incoming transfers, the team with the higher Maxpreps ranking moves in to the Open Division.

[nolebull813]

Georgia has the multiplier rule in regards to kids that come from out of the boundary. Private schools get an enrollment multiplier, as well as public’s who have out of zone students. 

[nhsehs]

29 minutes ago, nolebull813 said:

Georgia has the multiplier rule in regards to kids that come from out of the boundary. Private schools get an enrollment multiplier, as well as public’s who have out of zone students. 

Only thing about a multiplier is it touches on the issue of out of boundary issue, but doesn't directly address it. If 10 kids transfer in to take AP Calculus, that doesn't affect football. It also doesn't account for fake addresses, which are used more often than not. Also, how much of a multiplier, what number represents the value of a transfer?

People talk Metro/Suburban, public/private etc and what they are getting at is how to group schools who get transfers more easily than others. It makes more sense to just group teams by transfers and cut out all the periphery talk.

[nolebull813]

12 minutes ago, nhsehs said:

Only thing about a multiplier is it touches on the issue of out of boundary issue, but doesn't directly address it. If 10 kids transfer in to take AP Calculus, that doesn't affect football. It also doesn't account for fake addresses, which are used more often than not. Also, how much of a multiplier, what number represents the value of a transfer?

People talk Metro/Suburban, public/private etc and what they are getting at is how to group schools who get transfers more easily than others. It makes more sense to just group teams by transfers and cut out all the periphery talk.

Not all transfers are the same. A four star transferring for his senior year is not the same as a sophomore zero star transferring. 
 

It would appear that areas with real talent are being punished because the players are better. Because if 5 guys who aren’t rated transfer to a team and the team goes 4-6 no one bats an eye. But if 5 Division 1 guys transfer and they compete for state then it’s a problem. 

[181pl]

I'll say it again. Larger districts.  Separate the privates but of course they can play publics during the regular season to fill out their schedules.  Using this model, if you use the # 2400 as the bottom of the lower class, you end up with about 81 teams. NONE in the panhandle. This makes for 12 large districts. You can say top two qualify and then 2 at large in each region for a total of 32 teams.

This works about the same all the way down. You can fudge the numbers to end up with between 80-100 teams in classes 3A, 2A, and 1A. The only time geography is a problem is in 3A, but it's not too bad. Maybe you go to a regional model in a region or two and take the top 8 based on regional record and rankings.

 

Privates only need two full classes and an open class, which is essentially just a playoff tournament with all of the recruited juggernauts. The open class doesn't need to worry about districts or SOS because they will all qualify for the playoffs.

[CocoaFranco]

On 11/6/2023 at 5:13 PM, Dr. D said:

The classification issue is being discussed today at the FHSAA Board of Directors meeting, but no action is expected today.  If the Open-32 Championship was in effect this year, this would be the number of teams represented from each class: 

• 4M:  3
• 4S:   4
• 3M:  6
• 3S:   5
• 2M:  2
• 2S:   6
• 1M:  5
• 1S:   0
• 1R:   1

Not sure what this proves, but it would certainly make the playoffs more competitive if the top 4-6 teams are skimmed out of each classification prior to the playoffs.  But there would be 31 teams in the Open-32 who would feel they were denied a shot at a championship in their original classification.  Any changes to the classification system will have to be approved relatively soon by the FHSAA so that schedules can be set for next year.  

Open 32 is the most ridiculous proposal we have come up with.  If you support it, you do not understand high school football. Forcing the top 32 teams to compete for one state championship actually takes away the opportunity from many teams that could have won their classification but could never even make it past the 2nd round in an open 32. 

We care about competitive balance now? For years while public schools couldn't get transfers we watched private schools dominate every sport and every classification. 

 

This isnt that hard...

Make all transfers count as 1.5 students

All private schools go to 1.5 for every student.

Get rid of rural... we cant say rural needs their own class if we put metro and suburban together. 

or hey don't change anything this past year's metro suburban state championships were the closest games in recent history.. 

 

[CocoaFranco]

23 hours ago, nhsehs said:

Transfers are the issue. Nothing wrong with kids going where they want to go, but they create the imbalance. The issue isn't public/private, metro/suburban, rich/poor. There are schools that get them and schools that don't. There needs to be a system that groups teams based on that. 

Have an Open Division, but make it based on the number of incoming transfers.

All FHSAA teams will be places into districts based on geography and enrollment (pre Metro/Suburban split). 8 classifications (Rural + 1A - 7A), 16 districts per. District champions are automatic qualifiers and the remainder of the playoff qualifiers are determined by Maxpreps ranking. At the conclusion of the regular season, the 32 teams with the highest number of incoming transfers (tracked by GA-4 forms) are placed into Open Bracket. If a district champion is moved to the Open Division, the 2nd place team becomes an At-Large qualifier, assuming they are not in the Open Division. If they are, then the 3rd place team becomes an At-Large qualifier, and so on. If there is a tie for the 32nd most incoming transfers, the team with the higher Maxpreps ranking moves in to the Open Division.

let's reward the programs that have kids transfer out? Poll students about why they transfer its typically the school they are coming from doesn't support football, likely have a revolving door of coaches, runs a system that the player doesnt fit in... everyone wants to act like these kids are being recruited to leave... they aren't... they are leaving for their best opportunity.

[Perspective]

4 minutes ago, CocoaFranco said:

let's reward the programs that have kids transfer out? Poll students about why they transfer its typically the school they are coming from doesn't support football, likely have a revolving door of coaches, runs a system that the player doesnt fit in... everyone wants to act like these kids are being recruited to leave... they aren't... they are leaving for their best opportunity.

There are definitely kids out there transferring to get a better fit/opportunity, but to suggest that kids aren't being recruited (by coaches, parents, boosters, other players, etc.) is disingenuous, at best, and flat out wrong, at a minimum.  

[DarterBlue2]

15 minutes ago, CocoaFranco said:

let's reward the programs that have kids transfer out? Poll students about why they transfer its typically the school they are coming from doesn't support football, likely have a revolving door of coaches, runs a system that the player doesnt fit in... everyone wants to act like these kids are being recruited to leave... they aren't... they are leaving for their best opportunity.

 

8 minutes ago, Perspective said:

There are definitely kids out there transferring to get a better fit/opportunity, but to suggest that kids aren't being recruited (by coaches, parents, boosters, other players, etc.) is disingenuous, at best, and flat out wrong, at a minimum.  

From personal experiences this year, talking to parents of kids in the stands who have recently moved to the metro Orlando area, kids are recruited heavily. In three conversations, on three different nights, I got the same information regarding their decisions to live in particular areas and send their kids to particular schools. I can truthfully say that five schools in particular, were on the list of each of these parents as schools that recruited their kids very aggressively. 

Of course, it would not be appropriate to list names in this venue. 

I will close by saying that the list of promises made would make a timeshare salesman blush. 

[Perspective]

7 minutes ago, DarterBlue2 said:

I will close by saying that the list of promises made would make a timeshare salesman blush. 

Darter, I understand your reluctance to name schools or coaches in this forum.  However, I'd be interested in hearing about some of the promises/incentives being offered up (even if you have to change the names to protect the, um, guilty). 

[DarterBlue2]

8 minutes ago, Perspective said:

Darter, I understand your reluctance to name schools or coaches in this forum.  However, I'd be interested in hearing about some of the promises/incentives being offered up (even if you have to change the names to protect the, um, guilty). 

Guaranteed playing time on Varsity to a freshman moving in from the greater Atlanta area, free transportation to and from school, the opportunity to play on a state championship team, guaranteed power 5, recruitment, I could go on and on. 

Look, Apopka would certainly welcome a kid coming in from out of the area. Maybe we would go as far as promising a sport in a magnet program that would allow him to attend Apopka , if his grades were up to par and the parents did not choose to live within the school's boundaries.

But some of the other stuff ... geez ...  

[Floridaatlantic1]

On 10/26/2023 at 12:26 PM, VeniceIndianFan said:

The goal of the Metro/Suburban split was to break up schools like Madison County, STA, Miami Central, CMD, etc. Who were monopolizing state championships by playing schools that just couldn't compete with them without getting 10+ high level athletic transfers per year. 2M is almost a perfect representation of this. If the state doesn't want to do something about nonstop athletic transfers, then this is the next best thing, though it certainly isn't perfect.

The problem is that there still isn't enough parity because of how the classes are set up. Cocoa will steamroll 2S without any trouble at all. Daytona Mainland probably steamrolls 3S this year. Chaminade will break scoring records in 1M. Madison County will crush 1R with that stupid enrollment loophole. 1S isn't so good either.

So, the FHSAA has some things to sort out. It's at least good that they acknowledge that there is a problem; that's the first step in coming up with a solution. We will see how the open classification works if that's what the FHSAA decides to do next year. 

The suburb idea only helped elite suburb teams who already elite made finals or semi-finals and could not win state. Then the FHSAA  punished many metro schools by condensing 8 divisions into 4 and making enrollment gaps huge. Reason for more blowouts in districts and playoffs. Demote and promote top 15% and cheaters can fight for top 2 divisions called state title and rest regionals. Only 10% of schools have any shot at a state title anyway so let them compete for regionals lower titles and let cheaters and recruiters and open enrollment giants crush each other. 

[Floridaatlantic1]

Didn't winter park get busted for a horrible recruiting scandal when they were paying for apartments and such and the only punishment was the kids had to sit out only 5 games and were back for playoffs. No penalty for head coach or school so that basically said go ahead and cheat and its a ok with the fhsaa. So spare me your punishing the great teams with putting all the cheaters in a same 2 divisions and they would have won their division state title. Watching Chaminade destroy normal 1 s or 2 a schools is a  joke.