EXCLUSIVE: FHSAA Classification Task Force Committee proposes changes to classification system to help address competitive balance

[SportsFan]

So head to head first tiebreaker, point differential in district games second tiebreaker, RPI formula for third tiebreaker

@Perspective

[CocoaFranco]

On 10/4/2023 at 11:15 AM, Joshua Wilson said:

Committee endorses adding an Open Division playoff bracket for team sports while also eliminating Metro-Suburban classifications for football to help achieve competitive balance in the state

Yes, some big changes could be on the horizon soon if they come to fruition. Still, there is a long way to go, but this may start to address some of the concerns some of you have had about football (and maybe other sports). 

https://floridahsfootball.com/2023/10/04/exclusive-fhsaa-classification-task-force-committee-proposes-changes-to-classification-system-to-help-address-competitive-balance/

 

Here is my take. if you dont like reading jump to bullet 5 and 6

1) If we are justifying keeping rural because of population density then we need to lay out why we are moving away from suburban and metro. According to the FHSAA justification on metro suburban a couple years ago, from 2011-2021 metro teams won 89% of state titles (excluding rural). 

2) If enrollment is the key metric in determining classifications, we need to scrutinize how we count students. My opinion all students zoned for a high school count as 1 person, all students not zoned for a hs they are attending should count as 1.5 people. All students outside of a prescribed distance from a private school should count as 1.5 persons. The prescribed distance should be the average radius of public school zones in that private schools county. 

3) If we elect to have an open division it should be 4 teams only. For instance, if the season ended today according to the FHSAA rankings it would be Chaminade (1M), Cocoa (2S), Mainland (3S), and Miami Norland (2M). If we went by Max Preps (more realistic algorithm right now) it would be Chaminade (1M), Cocoa (2S), STA (3M), and Heritage Plantation (2M). In both of those scenarios it potentially allows someone else to win that classification. (1M, 2M, 2S, 2M, 3S, 3M). Anything more than 4 waters down winning a state championship in the other classifications. 

4) Addressing public and private seems to get people more emotional than metro suburban and the argument for pro private is open enrolment. Well that's not entirely the case. Many schools are not "open" due to capacity and very few public schools have the facilities like their private school counterparts.

5) Did metro suburban work in creating a more competitive state series.  Its pretty hard to argue it didn't. However, I believe there is a better way to break it up. 

4S Lakeland vs Venice (21-14) Public vs Public

4M Columbos vs Apopka (16-13) Private vs Public

3S Mainland vs Lake Wales (32-30) Public vs Public

3M STA vs Homestad  (38-21) Private vs Public

2S Cocoa vs FSU High (38-31) Public vs Private

2M Miami Central vs AH Plantation (38-31) Public vs Private

1S FBA vs Trinity Catholic (21-3) Private vs Private

1M Chaminade vs CCC (48-14) Private vs Private

1R Hawthrone vs Northview (13-2) Public vs Public

5 Public and 4 Private schools won…

6) my suggestion for next year 

- top 4 teams play in the open division called "The Open" 

- Combine 1S and 1R into one class  called "1A" 

-Take 1M and 2S make it one class called "2A"

- Take 2M and 3S and make it one class called "3A"

- Take 3M and  smaller half or 4S and make it one class called "4A"

-Take 4M and larger half of 4S and make it one class called "5A" 

That gives us 6 classifications... send it to the director. 

 

[SportsFan]

56 minutes ago, CocoaFranco said:

Here is my take. if you dont like reading jump to bullet 5 and 6

1) If we are justifying keeping rural because of population density then we need to lay out why we are moving away from suburban and metro. According to the FHSAA justification on metro suburban a couple years ago, from 2011-2021 metro teams won 89% of state titles (excluding rural). 

2) If enrollment is the key metric in determining classifications, we need to scrutinize how we count students. My opinion all students zoned for a high school count as 1 person, all students not zoned for a hs they are attending should count as 1.5 people. All students outside of a prescribed distance from a private school should count as 1.5 persons. The prescribed distance should be the average radius of public school zones in that private schools county. 

3) If we elect to have an open division it should be 4 teams only. For instance, if the season ended today according to the FHSAA rankings it would be Chaminade (1M), Cocoa (2S), Mainland (3S), and Miami Norland (2M). If we went by Max Preps (more realistic algorithm right now) it would be Chaminade (1M), Cocoa (2S), STA (3M), and Heritage Plantation (2M). In both of those scenarios it potentially allows someone else to win that classification. (1M, 2M, 2S, 2M, 3S, 3M). Anything more than 4 waters down winning a state championship in the other classifications. 

4) Addressing public and private seems to get people more emotional than metro suburban and the argument for pro private is open enrolment. Well that's not entirely the case. Many schools are not "open" due to capacity and very few public schools have the facilities like their private school counterparts.

5) Did metro suburban work in creating a more competitive state series.  Its pretty hard to argue it didn't. However, I believe there is a better way to break it up. 

4S Lakeland vs Venice (21-14) Public vs Public

4M Columbos vs Apopka (16-13) Private vs Public

3S Mainland vs Lake Wales (32-30) Public vs Public

3M STA vs Homestad  (38-21) Private vs Public

2S Cocoa vs FSU High (38-31) Public vs Private

2M Miami Central vs AH Plantation (38-31) Public vs Private

1S FBA vs Trinity Catholic (21-3) Private vs Private

1M Chaminade vs CCC (48-14) Private vs Private

1R Hawthrone vs Northview (13-2) Public vs Public

5 Public and 4 Private schools won…

6) my suggestion for next year 

- top 4 teams play in the open division called "The Open" 

- Combine 1S and 1R into one class  called "1A" 

-Take 1M and 2S make it one class called "2A"

- Take 2M and 3S and make it one class called "3A"

- Take 3M and  smaller half or 4S and make it one class called "4A"

-Take 4M and larger half of 4S and make it one class called "5A" 

That gives us 6 classifications... send it to the director. 

 

So put Miami Central in the same classification as schools like St Augustine and Middleburg?

That's the exact reason metro suburban was necessary in the first place 

I wouldn't be afraid of my school having to play TCA or Trinity Catholic to win a state title but I would be afraid to see them face Miami Central

[CocoaFranco]

On 10/6/2023 at 10:14 AM, PinellasFB said:

Yes this is the exact problem I have with this proposed open division.  As usual the FSHAA fixes something by proposing an even worse solution.  They are avoiding the root cause of all issues and that is recruiting/transfers.  It seems simple enough to separate school choice from athletics such that anyone is free to transfer for academics but they must sit out a year of athletics unless they moved to that school zone?  This doesn't solve the private school unfairness but just throw them into their own athletic association and be done with it.  Screw em.

sit out a year for transferring? that's insane... you cannot penalize a student because he's transferring to another program. maybe the school he is zoned for is on their 4th head coach in 5 years and runs the wing T and hes a pocket QB....  just weight transfers as 1.5 students 

[PinellasFB]

1 hour ago, CocoaFranco said:

sit out a year for transferring? that's insane... you cannot penalize a student because he's transferring to another program. maybe the school he is zoned for is on their 4th head coach in 5 years and runs the wing T and hes a pocket QB....  just weight transfers as 1.5 students 

What do you mean about weighting them as 1.5 students?  What does that do?  

[DarterBlue2]

11 minutes ago, PinellasFB said:

What do you mean about weighting them as 1.5 students?  What does that do?  

It would put the team in a higher class. That's not the problem, as many lower classification teams routinely beat the pants off bigger schools. It's the quality of the talent that counts. 

[SportsFan]

3 hours ago, CocoaFranco said:

Here is my take. if you dont like reading jump to bullet 5 and 6

1) If we are justifying keeping rural because of population density then we need to lay out why we are moving away from suburban and metro. According to the FHSAA justification on metro suburban a couple years ago, from 2011-2021 metro teams won 89% of state titles (excluding rural). 

2) If enrollment is the key metric in determining classifications, we need to scrutinize how we count students. My opinion all students zoned for a high school count as 1 person, all students not zoned for a hs they are attending should count as 1.5 people. All students outside of a prescribed distance from a private school should count as 1.5 persons. The prescribed distance should be the average radius of public school zones in that private schools county. 

3) If we elect to have an open division it should be 4 teams only. For instance, if the season ended today according to the FHSAA rankings it would be Chaminade (1M), Cocoa (2S), Mainland (3S), and Miami Norland (2M). If we went by Max Preps (more realistic algorithm right now) it would be Chaminade (1M), Cocoa (2S), STA (3M), and Heritage Plantation (2M). In both of those scenarios it potentially allows someone else to win that classification. (1M, 2M, 2S, 2M, 3S, 3M). Anything more than 4 waters down winning a state championship in the other classifications. 

4) Addressing public and private seems to get people more emotional than metro suburban and the argument for pro private is open enrolment. Well that's not entirely the case. Many schools are not "open" due to capacity and very few public schools have the facilities like their private school counterparts.

5) Did metro suburban work in creating a more competitive state series.  Its pretty hard to argue it didn't. However, I believe there is a better way to break it up. 

4S Lakeland vs Venice (21-14) Public vs Public

4M Columbos vs Apopka (16-13) Private vs Public

3S Mainland vs Lake Wales (32-30) Public vs Public

3M STA vs Homestad  (38-21) Private vs Public

2S Cocoa vs FSU High (38-31) Public vs Private

2M Miami Central vs AH Plantation (38-31) Public vs Private

1S FBA vs Trinity Catholic (21-3) Private vs Private

1M Chaminade vs CCC (48-14) Private vs Private

1R Hawthrone vs Northview (13-2) Public vs Public

5 Public and 4 Private schools won…

6) my suggestion for next year 

- top 4 teams play in the open division called "The Open" 

- Combine 1S and 1R into one class  called "1A" 

-Take 1M and 2S make it one class called "2A"

- Take 2M and 3S and make it one class called "3A"

- Take 3M and  smaller half or 4S and make it one class called "4A"

-Take 4M and larger half of 4S and make it one class called "5A" 

That gives us 6 classifications... send it to the director. 

 

Also side note 

Florida High is not a private school they are a laboratory school (similar to PK Yonge in Gainesville is for UF)

[Nulli Secundus]

On 10/5/2023 at 8:37 PM, Hwy17 said:

Imagine this: Let's say a really good program has been coming close but hasn't won a championship in their respective class yet. Then finally they got the team that just might win it, but by chance the computer ranks then 32 in the state. I for one would find that unfair. Especially if my team was 5a or 4a.

Agreed! Simple explanation here.

[Hwy17]

3 hours ago, Nulli Secundus said:

Agreed! Simple explanation here.

Thank you! See my post in the thread pertaining to Bartow. 

[anonimis]

On 10/5/2023 at 8:37 PM, Hwy17 said:

Imagine this: Let's say a really good program has been coming close but hasn't won a championship in their respective class yet. Then finally they got the team that just might win it, but by chance the computer ranks then 32 in the state. I for one would find that unfair. Especially if my team was 5a or 4a.

That's why I think the first round losers of the open bracket should get a bye into their respective brackets.  Also, the open championship should be at least double elimination with a consolation for 3rd/4th (I'm open to placing to 16, but I don't know if anyone else is).

[Floridaatlantic1]

Multipliers never really are high enough to bump any team more than one division. Promote top15% and demote bottom 15% every year based on last 4 years record. The cream will rise to the top and we will get more parity. Call top 2 divisions a state champion and rest something else. Easy enough and the great teams that cheat and recruit and can play other similar teams. Same thing for normal schools. Its the only way that does not reward certain areas like suburb teams who are in counties more populations that some in metro. 

[h8r]

On 10/12/2023 at 1:10 PM, CocoaFranco said:

sit out a year for transferring? that's insane... you cannot penalize a student because he's transferring to another program. maybe the school he is zoned for is on their 4th head coach in 5 years and runs the wing T and hes a pocket QB....  just weight transfers as 1.5 students 

whats insane about it?  it could help stop the portal from ever opening.  the transfer portal in college football has trickled down to HS and kids do this because its allowed.  

either were part of the problem or were part of the solution.  

stating 4th head coach in 5 years, blah blah, how about go be apart of bringing that school to prominence instead of going to be the 3rd wr in a load spread shotgun team.....

and dont gimmie the "best interets of the kid" crap, college coach sees a kid that stays at a wing t(more of them in america than anything else) offense being a blocking stud at wr and catching several Tds because he is a dude, than changinging schools 3 times in 4 years to "find the right fit" .

how about play at the school where you live and be done. wanna go to xyz school, move.

[Floridaatlantic1]

The sit out a year role after a transfer was a good rule for both hs and college but it wont fly in the current climate. One lawsuit and they would cave. 

[Jambun82]

On 10/12/2023 at 1:10 PM, CocoaFranco said:

sit out a year for transferring? that's insane... you cannot penalize a student because he's transferring to another program. maybe the school he is zoned for is on their 4th head coach in 5 years and runs the wing T and hes a pocket QB....  just weight transfers as 1.5 students 

Yes, this is a great point. 

[Jambun82]

23 hours ago, h8r said:

whats insane about it?  it could help stop the portal from ever opening.  the transfer portal in college football has trickled down to HS and kids do this because its allowed.  

either were part of the problem or were part of the solution.  

stating 4th head coach in 5 years, blah blah, how about go be apart of bringing that school to prominence instead of going to be the 3rd wr in a load spread shotgun team.....

and dont gimmie the "best interets of the kid" crap, college coach sees a kid that stays at a wing t(more of them in america than anything else) offense being a blocking stud at wr and catching several Tds because he is a dude, than changinging schools 3 times in 4 years to "find the right fit" .

how about play at the school where you live and be done. wanna go to xyz school, move.

Who are you to tell a high school player what school he/she has to attend? 

[DeCleater]

here is a thought... why don't we allow transfers to play in the regular season but come playoff time, they sit out their first year with the team. 

This allows players that played for those wang t teams to get reps on film with spread teams so those players can get into college.  

[h8r]

On 10/19/2023 at 9:57 AM, Jambun82 said:

Who are you to tell a high school player what school he/she has to attend? 

wow, really?  you live by school A but travel past 4 schools to get to where you want to go.

you can want in 1 hand and take a dump in the other, which one fills up quicker?

you are part of the problem, 

go where your zoned. period.

wanna go past those 4 schools, move.

[Floridaatlantic1]

I love how the cheaters use the same old excuse to stop promotion and demotion. It penalizes winners. The goal is to get state champions and let the rest compete against similar competition. Only 10% of the schools even have a snowballs chance in hell of winning a state championship and it might be even smaller. Let cheaters who recruit and do other shady open enrollment recruiting battle it out in the top 2 divisions and only call them state champs and let the other 90% compete for regional lesser trophies. Problem solved. top 15% go up and down in each division over a 4year win average. Its too easy. 

[Jambun82]

1 hour ago, h8r said:

wow, really?  you live by school A but travel past 4 schools to get to where you want to go.

you can want in 1 hand and take a dump in the other, which one fills up quicker?

you are part of the problem, 

go where your zoned. period.

wanna go past those 4 schools, move.

Who are you to tell a high school player what school he/she has to attend? 

[h8r]

28 minutes ago, Jambun82 said:

Who are you to tell a high school player what school he/she has to attend? 

not anyone in particular, but that it is in every normal state.  someone let the flood gates open with "choice" program.  dumbest idea since letting maxpreps figure out who is in the playoffs and as dumb as suburban and metro....

[Jambun82]

11 minutes ago, h8r said:

not anyone in particular, but that it is in every normal state.  someone let the flood gates open with "choice" program.  dumbest idea since letting maxpreps figure out who is in the playoffs and as dumb as suburban and metro....

If you don't like living in the Free State of Florida, you should consider residing in some other states that are more in-line with your "point-of-view". 

[PinellasFB]

1 hour ago, Jambun82 said:

If you don't like living in the Free State of Florida, you should consider residing in some other states that are more in-line with your "point-of-view". 

Bruh getting close to crossing the political line.  Please keep your personal politics on the sideline.  Obviously he doesn't like unlimited transfers because it becomes a free-for-all where students are no longer students but rent-a-players where funny business runs unabated.  It's now not uncommon where a kid transfers in the fall semester for football and then transfers elsewhere in the spring for a different sport.  School choice has always been about academics, not athletics.  These "school choices" are clearly for athletics, not academics.

I personally also don't like unlimited transfers but maybe a compromise is unlimited transfers to an equal or higher rated school so that it is still about academics?  Poorly rated schools who want transfers will then have to put all of their money into improving the academics of their school.

[h8r]

12 minutes ago, PinellasFB said:

Bruh getting close to crossing the political line.  Please keep your personal politics on the sideline.  Obviously he doesn't like unlimited transfers because it becomes a free-for-all where students are no longer students but rent-a-players where funny business runs unabated.  It's now not uncommon where a kid transfers in the fall semester for football and then transfers elsewhere in the spring for a different sport.  School choice has always been about academics, not athletics.  These "school choices" are clearly for athletics, not academics.

I personally also don't like unlimited transfers but maybe a compromise is unlimited transfers to an equal or higher rated school so that it is still about academics?  Poorly rated schools who want transfers will then have to put all of their money into improving the academics of their school.

 choice is for academic reasons and not for athletics, but its never for academic reasons and always for athletics, 100% spot on.  even fhsaa bylaws say that its not allowed or something similar

[Floridaatlantic1]

open enrollment and transfers for academic reasons is not the problem here.  Its recruiting and transfers for athletic reasons. Since our state association has zero power to rule them ineligible and even if they did, the state and courts would overturn it, we need to promote and demote. Period

[VeniceIndianFan]

1 hour ago, Floridaatlantic1 said:

open enrollment and transfers for academic reasons is not the problem here.  Its recruiting and transfers for athletic reasons. Since our state association has zero power to rule them ineligible and even if they did, the state and courts would overturn it, we need to promote and demote. Period

The goal of the Metro/Suburban split was to break up schools like Madison County, STA, Miami Central, CMD, etc. Who were monopolizing state championships by playing schools that just couldn't compete with them without getting 10+ high level athletic transfers per year. 2M is almost a perfect representation of this. If the state doesn't want to do something about nonstop athletic transfers, then this is the next best thing, though it certainly isn't perfect.

The problem is that there still isn't enough parity because of how the classes are set up. Cocoa will steamroll 2S without any trouble at all. Daytona Mainland probably steamrolls 3S this year. Chaminade will break scoring records in 1M. Madison County will crush 1R with that stupid enrollment loophole. 1S isn't so good either.

So, the FHSAA has some things to sort out. It's at least good that they acknowledge that there is a problem; that's the first step in coming up with a solution. We will see how the open classification works if that's what the FHSAA decides to do next year.