The Building of Super Teams

[DisabledAccount]

2 hours ago, Proseteye said:

Sometimes moving from a lower class to a higher class is a positive for some schools. Some of the lower classes provide some of the toughest competition. I guess we will see how it affects teams like Bolles and Trinity Christian that moved up because they were considered too good for the classes they were in. Now, if they had both moved to 8A instead of 5A I think they would have had easier sledding than what they will have in 5A.

Both of them would have trouble with a Vero or a Dr Phillips or a apopka so i don't think 8a would be any better for them

 

 

[gatorman-uf]

A year or more ago, I offered the solution to this unbridled movement. Team success means your teams moves up in classification (with some caveats for 1A Rural and 2A). One of the reasons for that was to allow a team that amasses a super team to continue to move up and play in a more competitive classification. As was suggested above, with unbridled movement, classifications will no longer be a balancing act. 

[DisabledAccount]

6 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

A year or more ago, I offered the solution to this unbridled movement. Team success means your teams moves up in classification (with some caveats for 1A Rural and 2A). One of the reasons for that was to allow a team that amasses a super team to continue to move up and play in a more competitive classification. As was suggested above, with unbridled movement, classifications will no longer be a balancing act. 

The problem i had was that would throw Columbia into the wolfs with all the super teams just because we are talented enough year in and year out to make the playoffs but we are by no means a super team so we would basically be kept from ever winning state in that class 

 

Teams like St Augustine also come to mind 

 

Teams that take What they have and make playoffs year in and year out but would be outmatched by these "superteams" 

 

The issue is that a consistent playoff team likely gets thrown with super team class but just because a team consistently makes playoffs don't mean they gonna be strong enough to hold with a STA type of team

[Zoe Boy]

41 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

The problem i had was that would throw Columbia into the wolfs with all the super teams just because we are talented enough year in and year out to make the playoffs but we are by no means a super team so we would basically be kept from ever winning state in that class 

 

Teams like St Augustine also come to mind 

 

Teams that take What they have and make playoffs year in and year out but would be outmatched by these "superteams" 

 

The issue is that a consistent playoff team likely gets thrown with super team class but just because a team consistently makes playoffs don't mean they gonna be strong enough to hold with a STA type of team

So what are the "super teams" like a "STA" are?

[DisabledAccount]

35 minutes ago, Zoe Boy said:

So what are the "super teams" like a "STA" are?

Teams that have double digit D1 athletes when several top of the line teams have maybe 5 or 6

 

Our 2015 team had i believe 3 or 4 D1 seniors and i believe maybe 1 D1 Junior and we go 12-2

 

So these teams with 15 or 20 are overkill, hopefully this open transfer rule levels it out and gives these preexisting super teams more than they can handle

 

Kinda how the warriors put LeBron in his place after he built super teams only this year to get one upped at his own game 

[Hwy17]

To me, matters not if its private or public, but when a program can somehow assemble twice the talent and roster size of other schools in their respective class, it defeats the purpose of why we have classification to begin with.  I think there should be a limit on the number of transfers a school can accept based off class size, or be forced to move up.  

Example: When a school with about 1000 students gets to play in class 4A but manages to have an extra 10-15 athletes transfer in to play football; IMO they aren't a true 4A school anymore.  

[DisabledAccount]

1 hour ago, Hwy17 said:

To me, matters not if its private or public, but when a program can somehow assemble twice the talent and roster size of other schools in their respective class, it defeats the purpose of why we have classification to begin with.  I think there should be a limit on the number of transfers a school can accept based off class size, or be forced to move up.  

Example: When a school with about 1000 students gets to play in class 4A but manages to have an extra 10-15 athletes transfer in to play football; IMO they aren't a true 4A school anymore.  

Hmm i understand that 

 

But to my example both Columbia and St Augustine have roster sizes similar to schools in the respective classes but just happen to win well with the talent carried on the roster so putting them in a class with super teams is just going to hold them back 

[cscs102002]

The solution is simple. Families must choose a school prior to the official start date of their freshman year. Once they've selected a school, they're locked in. Period. 

Any transfer that occurs after the official start date of their season (or first day of school for non fall sports), they are ineligible for interscholastic competition for one calendar year. 

Of course there are extenuating circumstances to this rule such as hardship appeals (voted on and approved by the FHSAA in a more timely manner than in the past), families moving into the school district, etc.. Just like any system, it would have it's kinks that would need to be worked out. 

It is important to note that this might not prevent "Super Teams" from forming, but what it would do is put kids in a system - academically, socially, athletically, and for some spiritually - that would allow them to grow where they were planted. Kids would then learn the merits of loyalty, commitment, overcoming adversity, and working towards a common goal with mostly the same teammates they started with their freshmen year.

Perennial powers like STA, AHP, and the like will still likely occur - and might be even stronger - because they are going to attract top prospect athletes from an early age and will matriculate through their programs over four years. For the rest of the programs, you would have the natural ebbs and flows where teams are really solid - playoff and/or potential state-championship caliber - for several years, and then they'll have a year or two where they are "down" due to possibly a lack of talent or inexperience. 

I'm not sure how anyone can argue this is a not a promising thought process. I'm not saying it's the only way to even the competitive balance either. 

Just a nickel's worth of thoughts...

[DisabledAccount]

2 minutes ago, cscs102002 said:

The solution is simple. Families must choose a school prior to the official start date of their freshman year. Once they've selected a school, they're locked in. Period. 

Any transfer that occurs after the official start date of their season (or first day of school for non fall sports), they are ineligible for interscholastic competition for one calendar year. 

Of course there are extenuating circumstances to this rule such as hardship appeals (voted on and approved by the FHSAA in a more timely manner than in the past), families moving into the school district, etc.. Just like any system, it would have it's kinks that would need to be worked out. 

It is important to note that this might not prevent "Super Teams" from forming, but what it would do is put kids in a system - academically, socially, athletically, and for some spiritually - that would allow them to grow where they were planted. Kids would then learn the merits of loyalty, commitment, overcoming adversity, and working towards a common goal with mostly the same teammates they started with their freshmen year.

Perennial powers like STA, AHP, and the like will still likely occur - and might be even stronger - because they are going to attract top prospect athletes from an early age and will matriculate through their programs over four years. For the rest of the programs, you would have the natural ebbs and flows where teams are really solid - playoff and/or potential state-championship caliber - for several years, and then they'll have a year or two where they are "down" due to possibly a lack of talent or inexperience. 

I'm not sure how anyone can argue this is a not a promising thought process. I'm not saying it's the only way to even the competitive balance either. 

Just a nickel's worth of thoughts...

It's a idea but honestly i think that would make it more unbalanced 

 

But anyway welcome to the board 

 

Do you have any particular team you rep? 

[cscs102002]

10 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

It's a idea but honestly i think that would make it more unbalanced 

 

But anyway welcome to the board 

 

Do you have any particular team you rep? 

It works pretty well in Georgia and in New Jersey. They don't follow that exact protocol I spoke about, but they come to mind with sound transfer regulations. 

How do you think it would sway competitive balance in a negative way? Coaches would get the chance to actually coach a kid for four years rather than just inherit new kids every year. 

The quality and success of a coach would be easier to distinguish as well because they'd be able to build a program over time. 

No team affiliation, just a fan. 

Thanks for the welcoming.

[DisabledAccount]

19 minutes ago, cscs102002 said:

It works pretty well in Georgia and in New Jersey. They don't follow that exact protocol I spoke about, but they come to mind with sound transfer regulations. 

How do you think it would sway competitive balance in a negative way? Coaches would get the chance to actually coach a kid for four years rather than just inherit new kids every year. 

The quality and success of a coach would be easier to distinguish as well because they'd be able to build a program over time. 

No team affiliation, just a fan. 

Thanks for the welcoming.

Because sometimes a school will get a transfer in a later stage of their high school careers 

 

Like 2 years ago we got 2 db transfers

 

One from central Florida and another from Mayo who made huge impact on our team especially in the playoffs 

 

We may have been good but without them we don't make 4th round

 

A team like sta don't need transfers to win 7a every year but for most teams a key transfer or 2 can take you from being a playoff team to a state contender but if they locked in one place it limits how competitive a team will be facing a sta type of team

 

 

Viera best player that year was a transfer,  without him they probably don't make 4th round much less state, without him they probably lose to lakeland 

 

Hmm alright well do you watch sports in a particular area, we always like to know whenever someone new joins and if it a area that we don't talk about much we can learn a lot about the team/area

[Hwy17]

There never was a problem with the occasional kid that moved into a school's zone so now he's transferring in.  That wasn't the issue. What's now the problem is that we are seeing schools getting an excessive number of transfers in from neighboring schools for one reason, to play football.  Remember 2006 - Lakeland got transfers in from all the neighboring schools in Polk county and there was a huge fuss, not only from the other Polk schools but particularly from the STA fans.  Same in 2011 when Armwood got busted.  Now this stuff is basically becoming sanctioned as the way to win a championship.  In 2013 I talked to a fan at Southeast who told me that all best athletes in Manatee county were using the county's school choice program to go over to Manatee HS.  Since then, Braden River has taken over that spot.  Also in 2011 Palmetto made a state title run, that had a number of transfers in from neighboring Southeast high because the head coach at Palmetto was a former assistant at Southeast.   Last year the Cocoa fan on this board comes on here and brags about the transfers their getting from neighboring Brevard county schools.  Seems they couldn't win 4a otherwise.  

Please note that these are all public schools, so I'm not saying its only private schools that "assemble" all the talent.  

 

[DisabledAccount]

13 minutes ago, Hwy17 said:

There never was a problem with the occasional kid that moved into a school's zone so now he's transferring in.  That wasn't the issue. What's now the problem is that we are seeing schools getting an excessive number of transfers in from neighboring schools for one reason, to play football.  Remember 2006 - Lakeland got transfers in from all the neighboring schools in Polk county and there was a huge fuss, not only from the other Polk schools but particularly from the STA fans.  Same in 2011 when Armwood got busted.  Now this stuff is basically becoming sanctioned as the way to win a championship.  In 2013 I talked to a fan at Southeast who told me that all best athletes in Manatee county were using the county's school choice program to go over to Manatee HS.  Since then, Braden River has taken over that spot.  Also in 2011 Palmetto made a state title run, that had a number of transfers in from neighboring Southeast high because the head coach at Palmetto was a former assistant at Palmetto.   Last year the Cocoa fan on this board comes on here and brags about the transfers their getting from neighboring Brevard county schools.  Seems they couldn't win 4a otherwise.  

Please note that these are all public schools, so I'm not saying its only private schools that "assemble" all the talent.  

 

The sta fans complained about lakeland that year only because they weren't good enough to beat them 

 

Had they won they wouldn't have cared how many transfers lakeland had

[Hwy17]

3 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

The sta fans complained about lakeland that year only because they weren't good enough to beat them 

 

Had they won they wouldn't have cared how many transfers lakeland had

The point is, it goes both ways, not really a public vs private issue.  

Back in 2013 I got into a conversation with Mr. Highschool Steve Berry about AHP.  He wrote an article about AHP, having over 20+ Division 1 prospects. They also had a roster size nearly double that of any of the other 5a school.  The top 5 public schools in class 5a all had roster sizes of about 40-50 players with 4-6 division 1 prospects.  Go figure that.  

[KeemD321]

On Wed Jun 28 2017 at 3:32 PM, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Because sometimes a school will get a transfer in a later stage of their high school careers 

 

Like 2 years ago we got 2 db transfers

 

One from central Florida and another from Mayo who made huge impact on our team especially in the playoffs 

 

We may have been good but without them we don't make 4th round

 

A team like sta don't need transfers to win 7a every year but for most teams a key transfer or 2 can take you from being a playoff team to a state contender but if they locked in one place it limits how competitive a team will be facing a sta type of team

 

 

Viera best player that year was a transfer,  without him they probably don't make 4th round much less state, without him they probably lose to lakeland 

 

Hmm alright well do you watch sports in a particular area, we always like to know whenever someone new joins and if it a area that we don't talk about much we can learn a lot about the team/area

Viera best player the season they made it to state actually wasn't a transfer.

[DisabledAccount]

6 minutes ago, KeemD321 said:

Viera best player the season they made it to state actually wasn't a transfer.

The wide receiver? 

 

[KeemD321]

1 minute ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

The wide receiver? 

 

Yes Tre Nixon was homegrown for them. His brother played receiver as well the seasons before.  He just had more exposure and hype than his brother Devin but they were a crazy combo together

[DisabledAccount]

9 minutes ago, KeemD321 said:

Yes Tre Nixon was homegrown for them. His brother played receiver as well the seasons before.  He just had more exposure and hype than his brother Devin but they were a crazy combo together

What about that interview where he slipped out and said he was recruited by viera? 

[KeemD321]

42 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

What about that interview where he slipped out and said he was recruited by viera? 

What interview was that? He played little league for suntree/viera  and him and his brother both played receiver for Viera high. They just didn't get much exposure due to Viera not making it past the first round

[DisabledAccount]

17 minutes ago, KeemD321 said:

What interview was that? He played little league for suntree/viera  and him and his brother both played receiver for Viera high. They just didn't get much exposure due to Viera not making it past the first round

The one after lakeland game

 

It was posted on rivals board and here like 2 days after game 

[Cjm04]

I honestly don't see much changing in South Florida.  Kids have always transferred whenever they felt like it.  The majority of the schools in South Florida are already over capacity, so they would have to provide an address to transfer, IE Palm Beach County only has three schools available for open transfer, Boynton Beach, Glades Central, Pahokee.  None of those schools were hotbeds for transfers before the rule.  Some schools ALWAYS found transfers when there was a rule, so I don't see much of a difference happening.

[DarterBlue2]

1 hour ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

The one after lakeland game

 

It was posted on rivals board and here like 2 days after game 

That was not Nixon. That receiver had an Hispanic last name and was probably the second best receiver on their team. 

[Cat_Scratch]

On 6/24/2017 at 7:13 PM, 954gator said:

Are they really an unbeatable machine though?

4A Booker T Washington beat STA last year... they are beatable. 

[DisabledAccount]

1 hour ago, DarterBlue2 said:

That was not Nixon. That receiver had an Hispanic last name and was probably the second best receiver on their team. 

Oh my bad 

 

All i remember was viera and reciever lol 

[Cat_Scratch]

13 hours ago, Hwy17 said:

There never was a problem with the occasional kid that moved into a school's zone so now he's transferring in.  That wasn't the issue. What's now the problem is that we are seeing schools getting an excessive number of transfers in from neighboring schools for one reason, to play football.  Remember 2006 - Lakeland got transfers in from all the neighboring schools in Polk county and there was a huge fuss, not only from the other Polk schools but particularly from the STA fans.  Same in 2011 when Armwood got busted.  Now this stuff is basically becoming sanctioned as the way to win a championship.  In 2013 I talked to a fan at Southeast who told me that all best athletes in Manatee county were using the county's school choice program to go over to Manatee HS.  Since then, Braden River has taken over that spot.  Also in 2011 Palmetto made a state title run, that had a number of transfers in from neighboring Southeast high because the head coach at Palmetto was a former assistant at Southeast.   Last year the Cocoa fan on this board comes on here and brags about the transfers their getting from neighboring Brevard county schools.  Seems they couldn't win 4a otherwise.  

Please note that these are all public schools, so I'm not saying its only private schools that "assemble" all the talent.  

 

No one ever brags about Cocoa's transfers. Someone from one of the other locale Brevard teams may come on here and complain about Cocoa getting transfers. I believe it was legal last year. How many schools win year in and year out that only play their home grown players? 

Here's the deal. It doesn't matter how many great players you have on a team if your coach isn't championship quality. 

So no, transfers are not always the answer to  building a great program. You also need a top quality coach to go along with that talent.

Simple as it can be said. You can win a lot of games on talent, but you're unlikely to win a championship with average coaching.