I WAS RIGHT AGAIN!

[Jambun82]

 Last year, I told everyone on this message board that the Metro-Suburban classifications were a good idea for the High School Football Playoffs, and in the what else is new department, I was right again. Those two seasons, several of the state title games came down to the last play of the game. This season, not one of these seven games played at FIU was a one-score game, NOT ONE! I hope to see the open division idea that has been talked about in the future, but in the meantime, DON"T EVER DOUBT ME AGAIN! 

[MarkECannon]

You better recognize!

[Jullian]

Regardless of all that…..Congratulations to NW Bulls. Though I have disputes with the 305 fans, there’s no dispute in NW domination in the classification & are one of the best teams in the state. Their shutout victory along with STA’s shutout win, both over unbeaten teams, were highlights of the Florida State HSFB championships. If Bridgewater avoids the calling of the NFL, he’s gonna build a superpower. Maybe the best game this weekend was AHP’s win over undefeated Orlando Jones. It took a kickoff return & a timely forced fumble to beat a really good Tiger team. 
Props to Venice whom destroyed Grubbs & Lake Mary as well as Cocoa who were fortunate that Gadsen’s coach went on a 4th & 2 from their 38 in the 3rd qtr. Couple plays later Tigers scored & never looked back. 
 

Too many state champions. Should be 3 classifications plus rural…….Or have the State Champions play each other(most of them did already) to crown 1 State Champion????????

[Dr. D]

16 hours ago, Jambun82 said:

 Last year, I told everyone on this message board that the Metro-Suburban classifications were a good idea for the High School Football Playoffs, and in the what else is new department, I was right again. Those two seasons, several of the state title games came down to the last play of the game. This season, not one of these seven games played at FIU was a one-score game, NOT ONE! I hope to see the open division idea that has been talked about in the future, but in the meantime, DON"T EVER DOUBT ME AGAIN! 

Let's see if the numbers support this viewpoint.  In the last 2 years of enrollment-based classification (2021, 2024), only 4 of the 14 championship games had a margin of victory 14 points or less, or 29% of games.  In the 2 years of Metro-Suburban classification (2022, 2023), 11 out of the 16 championship games had a margin of victory of 14 points or less, or 69% of games.  CONCLUSION: the championship games under Metro-Suburban were significantly more competitive than under enrollment-based classification.  I have other numbers that support the position that games through all 5 rounds of the playoffs were more competitive and less lopsided under the Metro-Suburban model.  Not that the FHSAA seems to care.  I believe they are counting on the Open Division starting in 2026 to make all classifications more competitive.  Here is a refresher: 

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/sports/high-school/2024/06/04/open-division-fhsaa-votes-for-new-high-school-championship-in-2026/73970308007/

[havs54]

A relegation system would be the best by far.

Let northwestern, STA, AHP, etc. All compete with one another in the playoffs and the title will be a close game.

[FBGUY1989]

33 minutes ago, havs54 said:

A relegation system would be the best by far.

Let northwestern, STA, AHP, etc. All compete with one another in the playoffs and the title will be a close game.

Why should they beat up on each other. Now I'll admit enrollment isn't a factor because you can have 1100 students vs a 2500 student school and you can literally beat the breaks off of them with 1100 hundred students. I think private schools should have their own classification and to everyone else like Central and Northern Florida schools well I don't have an answer. South Florida schools are just built different well except for Venice and IMG Academy.

[DarterBlue2]

36 minutes ago, FBGUY1989 said:

Why should they beat up on each other. Now I'll admit enrollment isn't a factor because you can have 1100 students vs a 2500 student school and you can literally beat the breaks off of them with 1100 hundred students. I think private schools should have their own classification and to everyone else like Central and Northern Florida schools well I don't have an answer. South Florida schools are just built different well except for Venice and IMG Academy.

Before there were rampant transfers, that's not totally true. Yes, the MNW, CC and SR had their fair share of titles. But with the talent spread among more schools the Jacksons, NMBs, MS, CG, etc., etc. used to have decent teams (in the case of Jackson very good teams) too. What we have in large metro areas now, and I won't limit it to south Florida, as it includes Tampa Bay, Greater Orlando, Jacksonville area, etc., are stacked teams where 5 to 6 schools have 90+% of the elite talent and many of the others have a hard time winning a few games each season. 

It goes without saying that this is not a model for the health of the sport at the high school level. It needs to be addressed one way or another or there will likely be mass exodus from the FHSAA tournament in the not too distant future. 

I won't hold my breath. 

[Ray Icaza]

1 hour ago, FBGUY1989 said:

Why should they beat up on each other. Now I'll admit enrollment isn't a factor because you can have 1100 students vs a 2500 student school and you can literally beat the breaks off of them with 1100 hundred students. I think private schools should have their own classification and to everyone else like Central and Northern Florida schools well I don't have an answer. South Florida schools are just built different well except for Venice and IMG Academy.

Venice and IMG use the same model, that is ......... load up on transfers.  I think the Miami Northwestern was the most talented team by far I watched in the playoffs, but even the announcers acknowledged that Bridgewater not only loaded up on talent this year but it will only increase next year.  Why should they beat up on each other you ask?  Simple fairness, play teams that do what you do in an "OPEN DIVISION".  Hope that happens.  

[Ray Icaza]

1 hour ago, DarterBlue2 said:

Before there were rampant transfers, that's not totally true. Yes, the MNW, CC and SR had their fair share of titles. But with the talent spread among more schools the Jacksons, NMBs, MS, CG, etc., etc. used to have decent teams (in the case of Jackson very good teams) too. What we have in large metro areas now, and I won't limit it to south Florida, as it includes Tampa Bay, Greater Orlando, Jacksonville area, etc., are stacked teams where 5 to 6 schools have 90+% of the elite talent and many of the others have a hard time winning a few games each season. 

It goes without saying that this is not a model for the health of the sport at the high school level. It needs to be addressed one way or another or there will likely be mass exodus from the FHSAA tournament in the not too distant future. 

I won't hold my breath. 

Have faith, these FHSAA folks aren't blind and hopefully will do the right thing. 

[DarterBlue2]

32 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:

Have faith, these FHSAA folks aren't blind and hopefully will do the right thing. 

Hope you are right. Somehow, I feel they may just be the creatures referred to in a children's nursery rhyme:" ... see how they run."

I hope I am just being cynical and that you will end up being right. 

[Jambun82]

4 hours ago, Dr. D said:

Let's see if the numbers support this viewpoint.  In the last 2 years of enrollment-based classification (2021, 2024), only 4 of the 14 championship games had a margin of victory 14 points or less, or 29% of games.  In the 2 years of Metro-Suburban classification (2022, 2023), 11 out of the 16 championship games had a margin of victory of 14 points or less, or 69% of games.  CONCLUSION: the championship games under Metro-Suburban were significantly more competitive than under enrollment-based classification.  I have other numbers that support the position that games through all 5 rounds of the playoffs were more competitive and less lopsided under the Metro-Suburban model.  Not that the FHSAA seems to care.  I believe they are counting on the Open Division starting in 2026 to make all classifications more competitive.  Here is a refresher: 

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/sports/high-school/2024/06/04/open-division-fhsaa-votes-for-new-high-school-championship-in-2026/73970308007/

I never get tired of being right, just in case you were interested. 

[MarkECannon]

Be careful Jambun, you are causing officials to consider calling an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty on you for excessive celebration.

[Dr. D]

1 hour ago, Ray Icaza said:

Have faith, these FHSAA folks aren't blind and hopefully will do the right thing. 

Almost everyone on this site is a homer (and rightfully so), so they advocate for the rules/regulations/scenarios which benefit their particular team.  The FHSAA is charged with ensuring competition on a "fair and equitable basis" (their words).  So the FHSAA should be the adults in the room in being objective and providing the right environment for the benefit of all member schools.  But my observation of the FHSAA Board of Directors is they are more concerned with representing the constituency for which they were appointed to represent; so, it becomes north vs. central vs. south; public vs. private vs. charter; rural vs. suburban vs. metro.  Count me among the cynics that there is a bright future for Florida high school football, but I too hope I am wrong.   

[nolebull813]

I wouldn’t mind the Metro/Suburban split if there was less classes. 
 

2 Metro 

2 Suburban 

1 Rural

Lets do it 

[Ray Icaza]

1 hour ago, Dr. D said:

Almost everyone on this site is a homer (and rightfully so), so they advocate for the rules/regulations/scenarios which benefit their particular team.  The FHSAA is charged with ensuring competition on a "fair and equitable basis" (their words).  So the FHSAA should be the adults in the room in being objective and providing the right environment for the benefit of all member schools.  But my observation of the FHSAA Board of Directors is they are more concerned with representing the constituency for which they were appointed to represent; so, it becomes north vs. central vs. south; public vs. private vs. charter; rural vs. suburban vs. metro.  Count me among the cynics that there is a bright future for Florida high school football, but I too hope I am wrong.   

History gives validity to yours and Darter's view of the FHSAA Board of Directors.  I have nothing objective to dispute your views, only hope. 

[Ray Icaza]

2 hours ago, MarkECannon said:

Be careful Jambun, you are causing officials to consider calling an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty on you for excessive celebration.

That my friend is GOLDEN!

[havs54]

16 hours ago, FBGUY1989 said:

Why should they beat up on each other. Now I'll admit enrollment isn't a factor because you can have 1100 students vs a 2500 student school and you can literally beat the breaks off of them with 1100 hundred students. I think private schools should have their own classification and to everyone else like Central and Northern Florida schools well I don't have an answer. South Florida schools are just built different well except for Venice and IMG Academy.

Because schools that operate like mini colleges should play mini colleges. Take this Hypothetical Playoff Scenario:

Private School A Enrollment of 300: Lost 4 Transfers 

Private School B Enrollment of 300: Gained 30+ Transfers 

 

This was actually our Reality in the Playoffs Round 1 if we made it...not even close to the same playing field. You can guess which school had 30+ Transfers pretty easily....

[FBGUY1989]

25 minutes ago, havs54 said:

Because schools that operate like mini colleges should play mini colleges. Take this Hypothetical Playoff Scenario:

Private School A Enrollment of 300: Lost 4 Transfers 

Private School B Enrollment of 300: Gained 30+ Transfers 

 

This was actually our Reality in the Playoffs Round 1 if we made it...not even close to the same playing field. You can guess which school had 30+ Transfers pretty easily....

Either way you look at it someone is going to complain.  FHSAA can make as many changes as needed but like I said a school is going to feel left out if they can't get in the playoffs or get into a bracket where it's not favorable.

[havs54]

1 hour ago, FBGUY1989 said:

Either way you look at it someone is going to complain.  FHSAA can make as many changes as needed but like I said a school is going to feel left out if they can't get in the playoffs or get into a bracket where it's not favorable.

I understand but the Law of Averages would work out over a few years by Promoting/Relegating the top 10% of teams divided by 7 or 8 classifications.

Enrollment based Alignment doesn't work no matter how you skin the cat. We've played 8A teams that were absolutely garbage and 1A teams that were insane...performance is a better metric 

Shoot just rank the 1st year of this system using Maxpreps Rankings..

[Ray Icaza]

3 hours ago, FBGUY1989 said:

Either way you look at it someone is going to complain.  FHSAA can make as many changes as needed but like I said a school is going to feel left out if they can't get in the playoffs or get into a bracket where it's not favorable.

That is correct, someone is always going to complain.  If they went to an "OPEN DIVISION" with 12 schools they would most likely all complain, while the other 550 would rejoice so why cater to the few rather than the many??

[Mike E]

I have a lot to say about so many things in this thread, I will try to keep it to some and not all. 

Private and public schools have never, ever, been the same and should be separated.

Public schools that get more than 10 inbound transfers (my random number) regardless of outbound transfers should have to play up a level for playoffs.  20, up 2, etc. (probably private as well)

Punishing good teams by forcing an open division makes no sense. Just because you don't like that STA, Chaminade, Columbus, Venice, Lakeland, etc have won a lot doesn't mean bad teams that don't deserve a title, should be handed one. In all likelihood, 12 of the 14 teams that played in the finals would have been in the Open.  Very likely all but one deserving champion would have gone out without an earned title. Giving those titles to who? 3 of the 7 teams that lost in Miami? Other teams that couldn't even win their region? The teams that win put in the work year after year to be where they are. One bad offseason of weight lifting, training, etc. can knock a program down for years.

The Rural Invitational seemed weird to me on the surface. But I watched the game on NFHS and those kids were just a proud to be in that game as any we saw in Miami this last week. Why cut it to 3 or 4 divisions rather than give more kids an unforgettable experience? It is about the kids not about us in the Ivory Tower.

Complaining about the scores of the title games.... not sure I get it.  Teams play relatively local schools their same size all the way to the regional championship. There is the "same kind of school" championship.  The final 4... truly the bonus. I went to all 7 of the games in Miami. So, I saw a little bit of everything. Being that I pay attention to 7A the most.... based on rankings all of the true 7A power was supposed to be in the Orlando area. I can tell you that it was Venice and the Miami area after. Win your region and be proud of that. Should LM be proud of what they accomplished this year? Or should they feel cheated because Venice wasn't pulled into an open division? 

Despite what they have been telling you for the last 50 years, not everyone deserves a ring.

 

[havs54]

4 minutes ago, Mike E said:

I have a lot to say about so many things in this thread, I will try to keep it to some and not all. 

Private and public schools have never, ever, been the same and should be separated.

Public schools that get more than 10 inbound transfers (my random number) regardless of outbound transfers should have to play up a level for playoffs.  20, up 2, etc. (probably private as well)

Punishing good teams by forcing an open division makes no sense. Just because you don't like that STA, Chaminade, Columbus, Venice, Lakeland, etc have won a lot doesn't mean bad teams that don't deserve a title, should be handed one. In all likelihood, 12 of the 14 teams that played in the finals would have been in the Open.  Very likely all but one deserving champion would have gone out without an earned title. Giving those titles to who? 3 of the 7 teams that lost in Miami? Other teams that couldn't even win their region? The teams that win put in the work year after year to be where they are. One bad offseason of weight lifting, training, etc. can knock a program down for years.

The Rural Invitational seemed weird to me on the surface. But I watched the game on NFHS and those kids were just a proud to be in that game as any we saw in Miami this last week. Why cut it to 3 or 4 divisions rather than give more kids an unforgettable experience? It is about the kids not about us in the Ivory Tower.

Complaining about the scores of the title games.... not sure I get it.  Teams play relatively local schools their same size all the way to the regional championship. There is the "same kind of school" championship.  The final 4... truly the bonus. I went to all 7 of the games in Miami. So, I saw a little bit of everything. Being that I pay attention to 7A the most.... based on rankings all of the true 7A power was supposed to be in the Orlando area. I can tell you that it was Venice and the Miami area after. Win your region and be proud of that. Should LM be proud of what they accomplished this year? Or should they feel cheated because Venice wasn't pulled into an open division? 

Despite what they have been telling you for the last 50 years, not everyone deserves a ring.

 

Agreed 100%, 8 Classes works but just need it to be more balanced enrollment aside.

I'm biased obviously being a small private school but my gripe is moreso at 1A being 1-600 Students...it's unrealistic and it should at least be 2 Divisions so the smaller Privates can compete. 

[Mike E]

15 minutes ago, havs54 said:

Agreed 100%, 8 Classes works but just need it to be more balanced enrollment aside.

I'm biased obviously being a small private school but my gripe is moreso at 1A being 1-600 Students...it's unrealistic and it should at least be 2 Divisions so the smaller Privates can compete. 

Obviously, the transfer thing cant apply to private schools and freshmen, maybe even the public schools. Those sophmore-senior transfers could still be used to bump teams up a level or 2. I can't imagine all of those Chaminade kids sitting on the bench as freshmen.

[Ray Icaza]

6 hours ago, Mike E said:

I have a lot to say about so many things in this thread, I will try to keep it to some and not all. 

Private and public schools have never, ever, been the same and should be separated.

Public schools that get more than 10 inbound transfers (my random number) regardless of outbound transfers should have to play up a level for playoffs.  20, up 2, etc. (probably private as well)

Punishing good teams by forcing an open division makes no sense. Just because you don't like that STA, Chaminade, Columbus, Venice, Lakeland, etc have won a lot doesn't mean bad teams that don't deserve a title, should be handed one. In all likelihood, 12 of the 14 teams that played in the finals would have been in the Open.  Very likely all but one deserving champion would have gone out without an earned title. Giving those titles to who? 3 of the 7 teams that lost in Miami? Other teams that couldn't even win their region? The teams that win put in the work year after year to be where they are. One bad offseason of weight lifting, training, etc. can knock a program down for years.

The Rural Invitational seemed weird to me on the surface. But I watched the game on NFHS and those kids were just a proud to be in that game as any we saw in Miami this last week. Why cut it to 3 or 4 divisions rather than give more kids an unforgettable experience? It is about the kids not about us in the Ivory Tower.

Complaining about the scores of the title games.... not sure I get it.  Teams play relatively local schools their same size all the way to the regional championship. There is the "same kind of school" championship.  The final 4... truly the bonus. I went to all 7 of the games in Miami. So, I saw a little bit of everything. Being that I pay attention to 7A the most.... based on rankings all of the true 7A power was supposed to be in the Orlando area. I can tell you that it was Venice and the Miami area after. Win your region and be proud of that. Should LM be proud of what they accomplished this year? Or should they feel cheated because Venice wasn't pulled into an open division? 

Despite what they have been telling you for the last 50 years, not everyone deserves a ring.

 

From the time I started participating on this forum, I have been against the promotion/relegation system if it involved giving state championships to teams at different levels of competence.  To this date, I reject rewarding mediocrity.  That said, the "OPEN DIVISION" would produce a singular state champion as the best team in Florida which would make the road more challenging for be it STA, MNW, Venice, Chaminade, etc...  They probably would be against this setup, but if they want to compete for that crown they would have no choice but to agree voluntarily.  If they opt out, then they could compete for champion of the gold division or silver division or bronze division or however you want to define it that is not a State Champion.  So I fully agree with your closing sentence, "NOT EVERYONE DESERVES A RING"!  That includes STA, MNW, Venice, Chaminade, AHP, etc...    Only ONE does. 
 

[Ray Icaza]

I am not well enough versed to state how many classifications for state titles is the correct number.  I do possess enough common sense to realize when the FHSAA came up with the formula of enrollment size they did it with the goal of "FAIRNESS".  Even a simpleton realizes in the past a school of 500 would have a disadvantage against a school of 3000, thus that formula.   Today that formula is irrelevant when you acquire not just a transfer or 2 or 10, but 3*, 4* and even 5* players from surrounding schools to build an All-Star team regardless of the enrollment size.  Let's drop the hypocrisy and just do what is right.