Lakeland is the reason we have super teams in Florida

[nolebull813]

Super teams meaning teams with multiple impact D1 transfers that no one can compete with outside of other super teams. So back in the day, Lakeland used to beat STA’s head in like a baby seal to the tune of 4 titles and a 5-1 overall postseason record against STA from 1996-2006. 
 

After 2006, STA said NO MAS!!!!! The South Florida teams started stockpiling talent at break neck speed starting with Miami Northwestern. With a collection of future college and NFL talent MNW wins the high school national title. 
 

Then in 2008, STA loaded at every position with a Broward County All Star team, crushes Lakeland and wins the first of their 2 national titles in 3 years. 
 

STA from 1963-2007 won 3 state championships. Then after stocking super teams, they proceed to win 12 state championships from 2008-2023. 
 

Miami Central from 1964-2009 a grand total of ZERO state championships. From 2010-2023 they win NINE titles!!!

Chaminade from 1964-2016 they win 2 titles. From 2017-2023 they win 6!! 
 

American Heritage won zero from 1981-2012 and then 4 titles since. 
 

These are the 4 top teams in Florida the last decade by far. None of these teams were anything before 2006. You can say STA won 3 but that is in 35 years compared to winning 12 of the last 16. 
 

And it’s all thanks to Lakeland 

[Longtime Observer]

Lakeland never had THAT many transfers in the 2000s. They had a couple high impact transfers. But, it was literally...a couple. Not 10 or 20 or 30 like is now common.

Regardless, I think all of this can be attributed to Lebron James, Chris Bosh and Dewayne Wade (the Miami Heat super teams following "the decision"); John Calipari at Kentucky and lastly AAU/youth league basketball. Those folks popularized the idea of super teams; it doesn't matter that they were in a different sport.

Recruiting and "super teams" are ubiquitous because the very idea is highly popular with players and parents alike. To end or significantly reduce the phenomenon, it'd have to become much less popular. I have no idea how to get to that point, or if it's even poosible.

[Ray Icaza]

My opinion is the roles are actually reversed as STA wasn't a force until the 90's (first title '92), but in the 3A classification as they followed the Bolles model of recruiting super teams.  Once they started bouncing back and forth between 4A-5A where we were as well as Lakeland to become a force, the realization kicked in it was time to load up those Dreadnaught cannons.  STA was 5A champ in '97, Osceola in '98 and Lakeland in '99 with STA champ in 4A in '99.  So around 2000 is when this trend started gaining steam for them as well as some teams in SFL to not rely on a couple of transfers but multiple ones.  This continued until judgement day in 2011 when heavy fines were imposed for this rule breaking and the slow changes that came about after that is now history.  Privates started this mess, not publics.  

[Vero Indian]

5 hours ago, nolebull813 said:

Super teams meaning teams with multiple impact D1 transfers that no one can compete with outside of other super teams. So back in the day, Lakeland used to beat STA’s head in like a baby seal to the tune of 4 titles and a 5-1 overall postseason record against STA from 1996-2006. 
 

After 2006, STA said NO MAS!!!!! The South Florida teams started stockpiling talent at break neck speed starting with Miami Northwestern. With a collection of future college and NFL talent MNW wins the high school national title. 
 

Then in 2008, STA loaded at every position with a Broward County All Star team, crushes Lakeland and wins the first of their 2 national titles in 3 years. 
 

STA from 1963-2007 won 3 state championships. Then after stocking super teams, they proceed to win 12 state championships from 2008-2023. 
 

Miami Central from 1964-2009 a grand total of ZERO state championships. From 2010-2023 they win NINE titles!!!

Chaminade from 1964-2016 they win 2 titles. From 2017-2023 they win 6!! 
 

American Heritage won zero from 1981-2012 and then 4 titles since. 
 

These are the 4 top teams in Florida the last decade by far. None of these teams were anything before 2006. You can say STA won 3 but that is in 35 years compared to winning 12 of the last 16. 
 

And it’s all thanks to Lakeland 

Pretty much from 2008-present, STA has cleaned out their division, that's probably why they're turning to open division 

[Dr. D]

STA and C-M are Exhibits 1 and 2 in the FHSAA's plans for an Open Division.  The Metro-Suburban/1A-7A and district games/no district games arguments were just preliminary to the Open Division implementation.  The Board members have a lot more constituents who are "have nots" than "haves".  As one Board member said, "you know who they are", of the handful of teams perceived to be ruining it for everyone else.  Given the potential money involved and the fairness argument, I'll be shocked if the Open Division is not adopted, and it won't be voluntary.

[gatorman-uf]

1 hour ago, Dr. D said:

STA and C-M are Exhibits 1 and 2 in the FHSAA's plans for an Open Division.  The Metro-Suburban/1A-7A and district games/no district games arguments were just preliminary to the Open Division implementation.  The Board members have a lot more constituents who are "have nots" than "haves".  As one Board member said, "you know who they are", of the handful of teams perceived to be ruining it for everyone else.  Given the potential money involved and the fairness argument, I'll be shocked if the Open Division is not adopted, and it won't be voluntary.

 

Do you think something similar would be true in other team sports (basketball, volleyball, soccer, and base/softball)?

[Ray Icaza]

2 hours ago, Dr. D said:

STA and C-M are Exhibits 1 and 2 in the FHSAA's plans for an Open Division.  The Metro-Suburban/1A-7A and district games/no district games arguments were just preliminary to the Open Division implementation.  The Board members have a lot more constituents who are "have nots" than "haves".  As one Board member said, "you know who they are", of the handful of teams perceived to be ruining it for everyone else.  Given the potential money involved and the fairness argument, I'll be shocked if the Open Division is not adopted, and it won't be voluntary.

Interesting point that the Open Division won't be voluntary.  Trying to read between the lines which aligns with my feeling that these guys aren't thrilled about having to beat each other up for the 1 TITLE!!  They seemed perfectly content beating up on the little guys and prefer the status quo.  Hopefully, this FHSAA board will actually do something meaningful.  

[DarterBlue2]

1 hour ago, Ray Icaza said:

Interesting point that the Open Division won't be voluntary.  Trying to read between the lines which aligns with my feeling that these guys aren't thrilled about having to beat each other up for the 1 TITLE!!  They seemed perfectly content beating up on the little guys and prefer the status quo.  Hopefully, this FHSAA board will actually do something meaningful.  

 

4 hours ago, Dr. D said:

STA and C-M are Exhibits 1 and 2 in the FHSAA's plans for an Open Division.  The Metro-Suburban/1A-7A and district games/no district games arguments were just preliminary to the Open Division implementation.  The Board members have a lot more constituents who are "have nots" than "haves".  As one Board member said, "you know who they are", of the handful of teams perceived to be ruining it for everyone else.  Given the potential money involved and the fairness argument, I'll be shocked if the Open Division is not adopted, and it won't be voluntary.

Implementing a mandatory (non voluntary) open division could actually be the best way of dissuading schools from recruiting all star teams. For if it's large enough, but not too large (maybe 24 to 32 teams), these schools may well say wait a minute, do we really want to have to beat each other up every year for one title, year in and year out? 

On the other hand, a smaller open division determined at or near the end of the season with 8-16 teams, may encourage teams to recruit heavily in a bid to "compete for the best in Florida title." But it would also give solid teams who currently don't have a real shot, a legitimate shot at winning one of the remaining 5, 6 or 7 titles. 

[Nulli Secundus]

13 hours ago, nolebull813 said:

Super teams meaning teams with multiple impact D1 transfers that no one can compete with outside of other super teams. So back in the day, Lakeland used to beat STA’s head in like a baby seal to the tune of 4 titles and a 5-1 overall postseason record against STA from 1996-2006. 
 

After 2006, STA said NO MAS!!!!! The South Florida teams started stockpiling talent at break neck speed starting with Miami Northwestern. With a collection of future college and NFL talent MNW wins the high school national title. 
 

Then in 2008, STA loaded at every position with a Broward County All Star team, crushes Lakeland and wins the first of their 2 national titles in 3 years. 
 

STA from 1963-2007 won 3 state championships. Then after stocking super teams, they proceed to win 12 state championships from 2008-2023. 
 

Miami Central from 1964-2009 a grand total of ZERO state championships. From 2010-2023 they win NINE titles!!!

Chaminade from 1964-2016 they win 2 titles. From 2017-2023 they win 6!! 
 

American Heritage won zero from 1981-2012 and then 4 titles since. 
 

These are the 4 top teams in Florida the last decade by far. None of these teams were anything before 2006. You can say STA won 3 but that is in 35 years compared to winning 12 of the last 16. 
 

And it’s all thanks to Lakeland 

I've been looking at this all day and trying to figure out the best way to respond.  Here it is!

I strongly disagree with the statement that these schools weren't anything prior to 2006, with the lone exception of MC.  They were known for being the rockets that couldn't lift off, and anyone with knowledge of Dade football would certainly agree.  Dade has long been a county where players "follow" coaches, lol.  Now it's Central's turn.

American Heritage (Plantation), not to be confused American Heritage (Delray), did make one finals appearance to the tune of a 30-13 drubbing by NFC during the Eagles' run in the 90's.  

Chaminade may have only won 2 titles between 1963-2016, but they have been to the finals 4 times in that same span.  

Now I'm hardly one to defend the Raiders but in this situation, to say the Raiders were nothing prior to 2006 is laughable at best.  First, I have to guess you made a slight error in saying that the Raiders only won 3 state championships from 1963-2007 as I know you keep stats on damn near everything, lol.  Now if you had stopped at 2006 you would be correct but including 2007 actually gives them 4.  For the sake of discussion we'll stop at 2006.  One very important detail that you left out is the fact that when STA embarked on one of the best comebacks in FHSAA history in the 2006 finals, this was the Raider's 10th trip to the big dance.  YES, for the people in the back in the room.  10 times! (91, 92, 96, 97, 99, 00, 01, 04, 05, 06).  I would hardly call a program that goes the the finals 10 times in a 16 years nothing.  To put it in perspective, from to 1963-2006, STA was 3-7 and Hillsborough County was 5-9 during that same period.  Secondly, although Lakeland gets notoriety for the amount of times they not only defeated STA but done so in overwhelming fashion, I'd be remiss to not mention the "OTHER" schools that gave the Raiders lumps, bruises and heartaches: (1991 FWB (39-14), 2000 Pine Forest 34-27 (3OT), 2001 Lincoln (28-20). 

Beginning in 2007, the Raiders have gone 12-1 (Thank Lakeland for that lone loss) in the Finals and regardless of how reclassification goes, you can bet the Raiders will find a way to get there.

STA, Chaminade and AH have matured into the inevitability of their "program building".  That was going to happen with or without Lakeland as Broward (much like Duval) is revered for their private schools and the public schools are, well, anyway....  A special round of applause goes to the FHSAA for making it easier than ever to moonwalk to the show.

[Dr. D]

9 hours ago, gatorman-uf said:

 

Do you think something similar would be true in other team sports (basketball, volleyball, soccer, and base/softball)?

I think the original proposal included an 8-team Open Division for all the team sports.   I'd be curious if they consulted with the coaches in all these team sports, but this way the FHSAA can say they aren't singling out the football elite (even though they are).

[Floridaatlantic1]

I think the open division is a good idea. I would expand it to 16 though. Let the cheater recruiters beat each other up instead crushing the non-cheaters. Plus, it will make for some awesome playoffs for the one true state champion of Florida in all sports. 

[nolebull813]

51 minutes ago, Floridaatlantic1 said:

I think the open division is a good idea. I would expand it to 16 though. Let the cheater recruiters beat each other up instead crushing the non-cheaters. Plus, it will make for some awesome playoffs for the one true state champion of Florida in all sports. 

Send link to the cheating so I can submit to the FHSAA please 

[nolebull813]

I think an open division is a good idea only if you cut the classes down substantially. Because it would be a mockery of biblical proportions if we took the 8-16 best teams in the state put them in 1 bracket and then had 7-9 more brackets of nothing but the good to average to below average teams. The champions would be atrocious. It would be an embarrassment beyond repair. A stain on the sport. I pray it never comes to that 

[shredstar]

I wouldn't be shocked to see fierce opposition to an "open" division from most or all of the above mentioned schools.  They seem to want no part of competing against each other for just ONE title.  It's far more lucrative to them to stockpile their own titles in their own divisions.  But if they do have to compete against each other then the competition for talent will be at an all new level with big $$$ involved.

As for the Bolles thing, they were ok and nothing more.  Once they hired Corky from Lee in 1989, easily the most recognizable coach up here at the time, everyone knew what was about to happen.  For years he scooped up all the talent from around town.  That, combined with facilities that many FCS universities would envy, they did what they did.  After he retired they have pretty much returned to what they were pre-Corky.  Most of their recent runs have come due to the lack of competition up here more than anything else.  They no longer have the talent base to compete with the elite teams and would likely never qualify for any type of open division.

[Dr. D]

I wonder if STA, C-M, maybe AHP, have given any thought to leaving the FHSAA and just playing a national schedule, like some of the national prep basketball powerhouses do.  They could team up with IMG, CAI, Gorman, St. Frances, etc.  Might be cost-prohibitive, but maybe they could make it up with a TV contract.  Just a thought....

[Floridaatlantic1]

2 hours ago, nolebull813 said:

Send link to the cheating so I can submit to the FHSAA please 

Sure. Just take a picture of all the state champions in the metro division and a few of the suburban rosters. and see how many players came from other schools or were supposed to go to other schools. They all recruit. Illegal thus a form of cheating. In order to be an elite team in Florida, you must get elite talent and the only way is to break the rule and recruit. Or you can bury your head in the sand like an ostrich and say that does not in our state. 

[Vero Indian]

38 minutes ago, Dr. D said:

I wonder if STA, C-M, maybe AHP, have given any thought to leaving the FHSAA and just playing a national schedule, like some of the national prep basketball powerhouses do.  They could team up with IMG, CAI, Gorman, St. Frances, etc.  Might be cost-prohibitive, but maybe they could make it up with a TV contract.  Just a thought....

I thought I read somewhere on here that IMG might be playoff eligible soon, if so might as well throw in CAI too 

[nolebull813]

7 minutes ago, Floridaatlantic1 said:

Sure. Just take a picture of all the state champions in the metro division and a few of the suburban rosters. and see how many players came from other schools or were supposed to go to other schools. They all recruit. Illegal thus a form of cheating. In order to be an elite team in Florida, you must get elite talent and the only way is to break the rule and recruit. Or you can bury your head in the sand like an ostrich and say that does not in our state. 

In the social media age I don’t think kids need to illegally enticed to go to a school. They know who the best teams are and can make things happen on their own. If you are a 4 star on a Broward public that lacks all the resources to succeed then you are most likely going to inquire what it takes to attend a private that will set the foundation for your future 

[Hwy17]

7 hours ago, Floridaatlantic1 said:

Sure. Just take a picture of all the state champions in the metro division and a few of the suburban rosters. and see how many players came from other schools or were supposed to go to other schools. They all recruit. Illegal thus a form of cheating. In order to be an elite team in Florida, you must get elite talent and the only way is to break the rule and recruit. Or you can bury your head in the sand like an ostrich and say that does not in our state. 

Around the state how often does one school get the majority of its transfers from one particular rival, and the downturn of the later coincide with the rise of the former? 

[Floridaatlantic1]

12 hours ago, Hwy17 said:

Around the state how often does one school get the majority of its transfers from one particular rival, and the downturn of the later coincide with the rise of the former? 

Just checkout a couple years ago when a ton of Lake Gibson's starters transferred out to another program after being runner ups at state. They were already at a super successful program and bam  recruited to another and gone. 

[smashmouth80]

13 hours ago, Hwy17 said:

Around the state how often does one school get the majority of its transfers from one particular rival, and the downturn of the later coincide with the rise of the former? 

Hawthorne took a ton of North Marion players this past year. 

[Nulli Secundus]

4 hours ago, Floridaatlantic1 said:

Just checkout a couple years ago when a ton of Lake Gibson's starters transferred out to another program after being runner ups at state. They were already at a super successful program and bam  recruited to another and gone. 

The pendulum swings both ways.  Funny how that's never brought up.  

[flabuck]

If you are highly talented player at a skilled position with some family resources behind you the colleges will find you, Sure it helps to go to a super power but does not eliminate you from getting recruited by the big name college programs. With the ever expanding 7 on 7 teams, the off season on campus camps and more and more people scouting and reporting on games you will get noticed. What may hold you back is having a good team and good coaching around you, a school that is in the regular visitation cycle by college recruiters but in the end if you have the raw talent and fit the culture they will find you.

I agree that in Dade County many players chase coaches, what were once dominant teams are no longer dominant, Northwestern had their run, Carol City had their run, Booker T had a run, Southridge , now it is Central's run along with Columbus.

[Nulli Secundus]

On 12/19/2023 at 7:56 PM, Hwy17 said:

Around the state how often does one school get the majority of its transfers from one particular rival, and the downturn of the later coincide with the rise of the former? 

Public schools can now follow the private school model and snag them before high school.  Kathleen (Lakeland) is a great example.  They can't even beat George Jenkins, lol.

[Nulli Secundus]

On 12/19/2023 at 9:31 AM, nolebull813 said:

Send link to the cheating so I can submit to the FHSAA please 

We're still waiting...