Does the FHSAA punish cheaters?

[SportsFan]

31 minutes ago, DarterBlue2 said:

8-16 sounds about right. It would remove all the real powerhouse teams while not forcing some very good, but not great teams, into a group with the best of the best where they would have little chance of ever winning it all. 

I would be okay with 16 as long as they don't announce who's in the open division or release the rankings until the week of the playoffs 

Certain teams would intentionally lose just to get out of the division especially when they are afraid to compete with elite teams 

[Perspective]

I continue to believe that there ought to be a "Premier League" of 12-16 teams.  However, I think the teams ought to be determined in advance of a given season and teams should be committed to staying in the Premier League for some predetermined period of time (say, 3 years).  After that, the team can drop out if they choose and a new team can join.   I'm even OK with relaxing recruiting rules for the teams that choose to play in the Premier League.  It's happening anyway - might as well allow it, if not embrace it.  Require the PL teams to play a minimum number of regular season games against other PL teams; the remainder of their games can be played against non-PL teams (old rivalries, out-of-state opponents, etc).  All teams (or perhaps just 'most' of the teams) participate in the PL playoffs, with seeding based upon an established formula, to crown the PL state champion.    All other teams in the state get placed into six divisions based on student body size, as has been the case for many years.  I'd hold off on the idea of promotion and relegation to see if the Premier League concept evens out the playing field in the non-PL divisions.  

Just my two cents. 

[SportsFan]

40 minutes ago, Perspective said:

I continue to believe that there ought to be a "Premier League" of 12-16 teams.  However, I think the teams ought to be determined in advance of a given season and teams should be committed to staying in the Premier League for some predetermined period of time (say, 3 years).  After that, the team can drop out if they choose and a new team can join.   I'm even OK with relaxing recruiting rules for the teams that choose to play in the Premier League.  It's happening anyway - might as well allow it, if not embrace it.  Require the PL teams to play a minimum number of regular season games against other PL teams; the remainder of their games can be played against non-PL teams (old rivalries, out-of-state opponents, etc).  All teams (or perhaps just 'most' of the teams) participate in the PL playoffs, with seeding based upon an established formula, to crown the PL state champion.    All other teams in the state get placed into six divisions based on student body size, as has been the case for many years.  I'd hold off on the idea of promotion and relegation to see if the Premier League concept evens out the playing field in the non-PL divisions.  

Just my two cents. 

Yup we see how well that worked also for 10 years before metro suburban

I really did love following games on scorestream at states that were over at the beginning of the second quarter

Truly great competition 

[Dr. D]

11 hours ago, SportsFan said:

I would be okay with 16 as long as they don't announce who's in the open division or release the rankings until the week of the playoffs 

Certain teams would intentionally lose just to get out of the division especially when they are afraid to compete with elite teams 

With the FHSAA now married to the MaxPreps rankings for selection and seeding, teams will know exactly where they stand from week 1 until the end of the regular season.

Someone asked what is to stop a team from losing intentionally to manipulate their postseason situation.  How about integrity, character, sportsmanship?........    (silly me).  

 

[Perspective]

5 minutes ago, SportsFan said:

Yup we see how well that worked also for 10 years before metro suburban

I really did love following games on scorestream at states that were over at the beginning of the second quarter

Truly great competition 

But if the top 12-16 teams are playing in the Premier League, I think the rest of the divisions would be more competitive.   Think about it, if you take teams like Chaminade, Cocoa, Central, MNW, U of STA, Columbus, Venice, Lakeland and a handful of others out of the mix, I think it would even out the playing field in the regular divisions.  If we're still seeing blowouts on a regular basis, then I'm open to promotion/relegation.  

By the way, I'm guessing you don't care much for the College Football Playoff National Championship games either . . . since 2017, when 'Bama beat UGA 26-23, the average point differential in the champion game has been 28 points, with the smallest margin of victory being 15 points and the largest margin being 58 points. 

[Nulli Secundus]

2 hours ago, Perspective said:

But if the top 12-16 teams are playing in the Premier League, I think the rest of the divisions would be more competitive.   Think about it, if you take teams like Chaminade, Cocoa, Central, MNW, U of STA, Columbus, Venice, Lakeland and a handful of others out of the mix, I think it would even out the playing field in the regular divisions.  If we're still seeing blowouts on a regular basis, then I'm open to promotion/relegation.  

By the way, I'm guessing you don't care much for the College Football Playoff National Championship games either . . . since 2017, when 'Bama beat UGA 26-23, the average point differential in the champion game has been 28 points, with the smallest margin of victory being 15 points and the largest margin being 58 points. 

Hmmmm...  I disagree.  If you remove the top tier teams, what's to stop tier 2 teams from killing everyone else and then we end up back in the same vicious cycle that everyone is trying to get away from now?  Just something to think about.

[SportsFan]

5 hours ago, Perspective said:

But if the top 12-16 teams are playing in the Premier League, I think the rest of the divisions would be more competitive.   Think about it, if you take teams like Chaminade, Cocoa, Central, MNW, U of STA, Columbus, Venice, Lakeland and a handful of others out of the mix, I think it would even out the playing field in the regular divisions.  If we're still seeing blowouts on a regular basis, then I'm open to promotion/relegation.  

By the way, I'm guessing you don't care much for the College Football Playoff National Championship games either . . . since 2017, when 'Bama beat UGA 26-23, the average point differential in the champion game has been 28 points, with the smallest margin of victory being 15 points and the largest margin being 58 points. 

I don't 

I watched a grand total of zero bowl games/CFP games this year 

[SportsFan]

5 hours ago, Dr. D said:

With the FHSAA now married to the MaxPreps rankings for selection and seeding, teams will know exactly where they stand from week 1 until the end of the regular season.

Someone asked what is to stop a team from losing intentionally to manipulate their postseason situation.  How about integrity, character, sportsmanship?........    (silly me).  

 

Society has shown none of that matters to people when money is at stake 

People will throw all of that away because a championship even in a "B league" will make it easier to sell local players to play for that program and get more boosters to open their wallets 

[Dr. D]

And here I thought those were the values that high school athletics were supposed to impart on its participants....... aah, naivete.

[Perspective]

2 hours ago, Nulli Secundus said:

Hmmmm...  I disagree.  If you remove the top tier teams, what's to stop tier 2 teams from killing everyone else and then we end up back in the same vicious cycle that everyone is trying to get away from now?  Just something to think about.

Nulli, I did think about that.  I actually started going back to the FHSAA archives to look at the scores from the state playoff semifinal games playoff games (going back to 2010).   And then I remembered that I actually have a day job. 

In any event, we may just have to respectfully agree to disagree on this point.  I think that's still allowed . . . even on message boards. 

[Perspective]

36 minutes ago, SportsFan said:

I don't 

I watched a grand total of zero bowl games/CFP games this year 

I watched very few of the bowl games myself, but I did watch the three CFP games. 

That said, I must say I find it a little bit ironic that the poster who confesses to having watched zero college football post-season games goes by the moniker "SportsFan."  

[DarterBlue2]

10 hours ago, Perspective said:

I watched very few of the bowl games myself, but I did watch the three CFP games. 

That said, I must say I find it a little bit ironic that the poster who confesses to having watched zero college football post-season games goes by the moniker "SportsFan."  

He's a high school sports fan. Kind of like me. I watch the super bowl, and the National Championship college game, and, if UCF is having a really good year, I may attend a home game as my wife is an alum. But aside from that, I watch High School sports, especially football. I guess it's because it used to reflect the game at its purest, where the great majority of the participants will end their careers when they graduate. 

Unfortunately, it has lost much of its purity over the past 25 seasons. 

[Nulli Secundus]

16 hours ago, Perspective said:

Nulli, I did think about that.  I actually started going back to the FHSAA archives to look at the scores from the state playoff semifinal games playoff games (going back to 2010).   And then I remembered that I actually have a day job. 

In any event, we may just have to respectfully agree to disagree on this point.  I think that's still allowed . . . even on message boards. 

I'm here for the conversation and that doesn't mean we have to agree all the time.  Healthy discussion never hurt anyone unless you're a P**** .

It's funny you mention 2010.  Just last week, I was thinking why in the world did the FHSAA pick 2010 as the baseline starting point for the m/s/r agenda.  Looking at trends, the scales tipped in favor of metro counties in 2002 but really exploded when the state went to 7 classes.  Like you, I have a day job and didn't take it any deeper than that.  It's all a numbers game, lol.

[Floridaatlantic1]

On 2/13/2024 at 9:26 PM, Longtime Observer said:

Emotional, knee-jerk reactions won't help matters. Legislation has to be written in objective, preferably measurable terms. I assume you'd classify Lakeland as a "cheater" and not Lake Gibson. So, how are you going to word legislation that establishes this, given the fact that Lake Gibson's leading rusher was a transfer from Lakeland and their leading WR was also a transfer from Lakeland? There were no players who started most every game for Lakeland and had played for Lake Gibson previously. (One player started sometimes but had been at Lakeland two years). The reality there seems to point to Lake Gibson being the "cheater", no?

I know Lakeland is not only team that recruits or cheats. I dont need some investigative team to decide who does and does not cheat. Just take top 15% of teams and promote them each year on a four year basis and demote the bottom 15% and in 5 years, the top division will be all the cheaters and recruiters. Or take top 32 teams in Maxpreps and put them in 8 A and use other divisions by enrollment. Same result. Put teams who are similar in divisions. Only call top division a true state title and the rest are regional enrollment champs  . Done deal. 

[nolebull813]

27 minutes ago, Floridaatlantic1 said:

I know Lakeland is not only team that recruits or cheats. I dont need some investigative team to decide who does and does not cheat. Just take top 15% of teams and promote them each year on a four year basis and demote the bottom 15% and in 5 years, the top division will be all the cheaters and recruiters. Or take top 32 teams in Maxpreps and put them in 8 A and use other divisions by enrollment. Same result. Put teams who are similar in divisions. Only call top division a true state title and the rest are regional enrollment champs  . Done deal. 

You sound butt hurt like your team lost to a team with more talent and better overall at the game of American football 

[smashmouth80]

14 minutes ago, nolebull813 said:

You sound butt hurt like your team lost to a team with more talent and better overall at the game of American football 

Should IMG be allowed to compete for a State Title?

[Floridaatlantic1]

14 minutes ago, nolebull813 said:

You sound butt hurt like your team lost to a team with more talent and better overall at the game of American football 

I love being attacked for making reasonable statements. I have had my favorite team get destroyed in the late playoffs by a South Florida all star team and it did suck. However, the motivation for my pushing the promotion and demotion idea is due to the fact that open enrollment has made recruiting necessary to compete at the highest levels and the distance between the cheaters and the non cheaters is getting much worse. Its futile to make some system like competitive balance where we count transfers and depend on the FHSAA to investigate or people to self regulate themselves. Promotion and demotion would get same results and let cheaters play cheaters. The metro suburb people illustrated the point 2 years ago when they showed how horrible the state games have become. The open division would need to be at least 16 teams.

Here who would probably make it up and i might miss a team here or there. in no particular order.

#1. STA                                                    #9.Treasure Coast

#2. Columbus                                         #10. Jesuit

#3. Chaminade                                       #11. Edgewater

#4. Lakeland                                            #12. Miami Central

#5. Venice                                                #13. Northwestern

#6. Clearwater Central Cath                   #14. Aopka

#7. Cocoa                                                  #15. Osceola

#8. AHP - Broward                                    #16. Cardinal Gibbons

 

 

 

[Perspective]

16 minutes ago, smashmouth80 said:

Should IMG be allowed to compete for a State Title?

My answer to this question is pretty simple:

If IMG is willing to play by the same rules as all other FHSAA member schools, whatever those rules may be, then, yes, they should be able to compete for a state title. 

If IMG is not willing to play by the same rules as all other FHSAA member schools, whatever those rules may be, then, no, they should not be able to complete for a state title. 

 

[Floridaatlantic1]

18 minutes ago, smashmouth80 said:

Should IMG be allowed to compete for a State Title?

Why not according the all the lets keep the current system so my team can pummel teams with have their talent. 

[Floridaatlantic1]

1 minute ago, Perspective said:

My answer to this question is pretty simple:

If IMG is willing to play by the same rules as all other FHSAA member schools, whatever those rules may be, then, yes, they should be able to compete for a state title. 

If IMG is not willing to play by the same rules as all other FHSAA member schools, whatever those rules may be, then, no, they should not be able to complete for a state title. 

 

Funny...RULES. The point is there are no rules because of open enrollment and even when the FHSAA nails someone NOTHING happens most of the time. Let IMG IN LET IMG IN. I guess these great state champs dont want to have to play someone with twice their talent level huh. Sound familiar.

[Tigerskin]

On 2/15/2024 at 9:49 AM, Floridaatlantic1 said:

Funny...RULES. The point is there are no rules because of open enrollment and even when the FHSAA nails someone NOTHING happens most of the time. Let IMG IN LET IMG IN. I guess these great state champs dont want to have to play someone with twice their talent level huh. Sound familiar.

Nole bull and the rest of South Fl are just like you said scared of IMG because they just have more talent and they acquire it the same way more players to choose from. They’re like a bully pick on the county 100 times smaller but with somebody who has more players to choose don’t let them in.

[Tigerskin]

This talent thing they talk about is overrated Miami Metro has more people than Jacksoville to Pensacola combined. If you probably look North Fl has as many kids per population sign D 1 as South Fl and I know the Jacksonville are has 2 Heisman Winners what does Miami Have

[Floridaatlantic1]

On 2/17/2024 at 4:36 PM, Tigerskin said:

Nole bull and the rest of South Fl are just like you said scared of IMG because they just have more talent and they acquire it the same way more players to choose from. They’re like a bully pick on the county 100 times smaller but with somebody who has more players to choose don’t let them in.

I think you might as well let IMG in since they recruit like the other state powers do. Let some cheaters get a taste of their own medicine with a few 60-0 blowouts. 

[Longtime Observer]

9 hours ago, Floridaatlantic1 said:

I think you might as well let IMG in since they recruit like the other state powers do. Let some cheaters get a taste of their own medicine with a few 60-0 blowouts. 

Whatever is done, the people making the decisions need to be reasonable and analytical, rather than emotional and reactionary.

[Ray Icaza]

On 2/7/2024 at 9:20 AM, Perspective said:

Other threads have touched on the topic of whether, in light of new school choice rules, the FHSAA punishes teams that recruit or otherwise violate FHSAA rules.   Here's my question:  does the FHSAA publish the cases - and more importantly, the results of cases -- that have come before it over the past year or two?   I'd be interested to see something like:  "School A was accused of recruiting (or, perhaps, allegations of recruiting were leveled against School A leading to a self-report).  A determination was made that the accusations were (a) unfounded and the matter was closed or (b) well-founded and the following penalty(ies) were assessed against the school and/or its coaches."    Such a list ought to be published quarterly.  Let everyone see who's guilty of cheating and how they were punished.    Feel free to disagree (but you'll be wrong).    

"BREAKING:   FHSAA finds rules violations by undefeated THE FIRST ACADEMY football".   This headline just popped up in the Orlando Sentinel Sports page.  My wife isn't here to help me Paste & Copy the article but apparently the investigation asked TFA to self-report and they didn't.  Not clear what the punishment will be and have no axe to grind with these people but getting 30+ transfers from surrounding teams seems pretty egregious so hope the penalty sends a message.