Armwood vs MNW

[954gator]

On December 4, 2017 at 12:54 PM, OldSchoolLion said:

Used to live in the Tampa area back in the early 2000's and watch the area teams play.  I remember back then wondering why Armwood would rarely, if ever, play anyone from outside Hillsborough County in the regular season, especially when you had good teams like Lakeland, Kathleen, and Lake Gibson right down the interstate in Polk County and a number of good teams not too far away in the Sarasota/Bradenton area.  From what I recall, they might have only 1-2 close games per year, against Hillsborough and Plant, and all of the rest were blowouts.

Back then, this practice seemed to hurt them come playoff time when they might have to travel and play much tougher teams than what they were used to.  I see that is still the trend today to play local teams, many of whom are much weaker.  Does anyone know why this is the case?

Just for kicks, I looked at their schedule since 2005 and looks like they only played a handful of teams from outside their area, and only one of those was an away game:

2008 Bothell, WA-HOME-WON

2011 Bishop Gorman, NV-AWAY-LOST

2012 American Heritage-Delray(3A school)-HOME-LOST

2013 Cooper City (3-8 record that year)-HOME-WON

I have experience with high school football in south Florida and a team in Dade or Broward County could build a brutal schedule playing just county teams-no need to travel far.  Judging by the scores of many of Armwood's games, things are not as competitive there, even now.    

Fyi Armwood beat Gorman when they traveled to LV.   Maybe its a loss because of the forfeits, but they did win.

I agree though, would help them to play a tougher schedule, but apparently HB county has a few restrictions.   Also now that the playoff format is what it is I doubt we are going to see very tough in state scheduling.

[954gator]

Just now, 954gator said:

Fyi Armwood beat Gorman when they traveled to LV.   Maybe its a loss because of the forfeits, but they did win.

 

[Zoe Boy]

17 hours ago, 181pl said:

better QB. 4 star legit RB and wr. very strong d.

Better then Tutu ? I doubt it.. Rb for Armwood is legit but Da West hast 2... and I think this is the best secondary Armwood would have seen all year ... Divvad Wilson best DB in the state.. That’s including PS2 and Campbell at AHP and STA DBs... He made me a believer..

[FLFB]

Similarly talented teams but I'm going with the West because they have faced more elite competition and are more battle tested

[FLFB]

On December 4, 2017 at 12:54 PM, OldSchoolLion said:

Used to live in the Tampa area back in the early 2000's and watch the area teams play.  I remember back then wondering why Armwood would rarely, if ever, play anyone from outside Hillsborough County in the regular season, especially when you had good teams like Lakeland, Kathleen, and Lake Gibson right down the interstate in Polk County and a number of good teams not too far away in the Sarasota/Bradenton area.  From what I recall, they might have only 1-2 close games per year, against Hillsborough and Plant, and all of the rest were blowouts.

Back then, this practice seemed to hurt them come playoff time when they might have to travel and play much tougher teams than what they were used to.  I see that is still the trend today to play local teams, many of whom are much weaker.  Does anyone know why this is the case?

Just for kicks, I looked at their schedule since 2005 and looks like they only played a handful of teams from outside their area, and only one of those was an away game:

2008 Bothell, WA-HOME-WON

2011 Bishop Gorman, NV-AWAY-LOST

2012 American Heritage-Delray(3A school)-HOME-LOST

2013 Cooper City (3-8 record that year)-HOME-WON

I have experience with high school football in south Florida and a team in Dade or Broward County could build a brutal schedule playing just county teams-no need to travel far.  Judging by the scores of many of Armwood's games, things are not as competitive there, even now.    

They won that game, on the road in vegas, without their 4* RB who is now in the NFL

Who cares if they had to forfeit, for the purpose of evaluating their performance over the years it is disingenuous to refer to that as a "loss"

[DisabledAccount]

28 minutes ago, Zoe Boy said:

Better then Tutu ? I doubt it.. Rb for Armwood is legit but Da West hast 2... and I think this is the best secondary Armwood would have seen all year ... Divvad Wilson best DB in the state.. That’s including PS2 and Campbell at AHP and STA DBs... He made me a believer..

I think he meant better than previous armwood teams

[FLFB]

On 12/4/2017 at 2:27 PM, OldSchoolLion said:

According to the records, below are the scores from Armwood's final game of each season over the past 10 years.  Excluding the years they had to forfeit, Armwood has not had good luck with teams from south Florida in the playoffs. 

One has to wonder if their schedule prepares them well for such competition.   Armwood has not had a close game all season.  Northwestern has had a number of them, and even tasted what it is like to lose a close one.  I saw Miami Northwestern destroy Naples last week and cannot imagine any of the teams Armwood faced this year are remotely as fast or physical across the board.   

2007-Miami Booker T Washington 34-14 LOSS

2008-Plant 17-14 LOSS

2009-Dwyer 41-15 LOSS

2010-forfeit

2011-forfeit

2012-Gainesville 42-10 LOSS

2013-Miami Central 52-7 LOSS

2014-Miami Central 24-10 LOSS

2015-Miami Central 48-13 LOSS

2016-Lake Gibson 18-15 LOSS

In 2015, Armwood waltzed their way through the regular season and the playoffs.  The highest ranked team they played in the playoffs was #24 in FL and none of their playoff games were close.  Central had to beat 3 Top 20 FL teams to make the finals that year.  Central played a tough regular season schedule, including Dematha.  ...and then they met Central

This year, once again, Armwood has had a relatively easy regular season and faced only one Top 20 team in the playoffs.  None of their playoff games were close.  Northwestern had a brutal regular season schedule, including IMG, and had to play 2 Top 20 teams to make the finals, and both games were close.  I could see the same result as 2015, with Northwestern winning big.   

It seems you are contriving this idea they have historically struggled vs SFL teams in the playoffs by nitpicking facts.

 

Why would you arbitrarily start at 2007? You conveniently left out 2004 and 2005 when Armwood beat BTW (including on the road in 05').

2007= BTW's second best team in school history 

2008= Not a SFL team

2009= Dwyer's best team in school history

2010= W vs. Dwyer you conveniently left out (as I stated in the other post, forfeits are irrelevant in evaluating teams performance)

2011= W vs. Miami Central you conveniently left out

2012= Not a SFL team

2013-15= MC, the only SFL team/years you can say Armwood has truly struggled with

2016= Not a SFL team

 

That's 4-5 vs. SFL elites in the playoffs, not good, not bad, you win some you lose some, about what you'd expect

2-1 vs. BTW

1-1 vs. Dwyer

1-3 vs. MC

 

Also them not having a close game all season is more a testament to them this year than a slight to their schedule as Plant, TBT, and Hillsborough (x2) were all pretty good this year, better then the last few years.

And do you really think none of the teams Armwood faced this year "are remotely as fast or physical across the board" as Naples?! That is asinine. Naples is not that good. The 3 aforementioned teams would all easily beat Naples as would Vanguard and St. augustine.

The game this year will be close, just like CC-LG last year but higher scoring. And I give the West the edge due to being more battle tested vs. elites and having engaged in close games

[DisabledAccount]

1 minute ago, FLFB said:

It seems you are contriving this idea they have historically struggled vs SFL teams in the playoffs by nitpicking facts.

 

Why would you arbitrarily start at 2007? You conveniently left out 2004 and 2005 when Armwood beat BTW (including on the road in 05').

2007= BTW's second best team in school history 

2008= Not a SFL team

2009= Dwyer's best team in school history

2010= W vs. Dwyer you conveniently left out (as I stated in the other post, forfeits are irrelevant in evaluating teams performance)

2011= W vs. Miami Central you conveniently left out

2012= Not a SFL team

2013-15= MC, the only SFL team/years you can say Armwood has truly struggled with

2016= Not a SFL team

 

That's 4-5 vs. SFL elites in the playoffs, not good, not bad, you win some you lose some, about what you'd expect

2-1 vs. BTW

1-1 vs. Dwyer

1-3 vs. MC

 

Also them not having a close game all season is more a testament to them this year than a slight to their schedule as Plant, TBT, and Hillsborough (x2) were all pretty good this year, better then the last few years.

And do you really think none of the teams Armwood faced this year "are remotely as fast or physical across the board" as Naples? That is asinine. The 3 aforementioned teams would all easily beat Naples as would probably Vanguard and St. augustine.

The game this year will be close, just like CC-LG last year but higher scoring. And I give the West the edge due to being more battle tested and having engaged in close games

Plant was probably better last year but yes Hillsbourgh and Tampa Bay Tech were solid 

[Cjm04]

Yall are acting like Armwood has never smacked South Florida teams for state titles....

[DisabledAccount]

1 minute ago, Cjm04 said:

Yall are acting like Armwood has never smacked South Florida teams for state titles....

They haven't since they got busted

[peezy28]

Actually that had nothing to do with it... They still do the same stuff.  It was when they lost OC Chris Taylor that they haven't been able to top the Miami programs.  

This years team is better than the last team they had that beat Central in the ineligiblebowl but I don't know if that means they can beat MNW... Different beast down there. 

[OldSchoolLion]

 

2 hours ago, FLFB said:

It seems you are contriving this idea they have historically struggled vs SFL teams in the playoffs by nitpicking facts.

 

Why would you arbitrarily start at 2007? You conveniently left out 2004 and 2005 when Armwood beat BTW (including on the road in 05').

2007= BTW's second best team in school history 

2008= Not a SFL team

2009= Dwyer's best team in school history

2010= W vs. Dwyer you conveniently left out (as I stated in the other post, forfeits are irrelevant in evaluating teams performance)

2011= W vs. Miami Central you conveniently left out

2012= Not a SFL team

2013-15= MC, the only SFL team/years you can say Armwood has truly struggled with

2016= Not a SFL team

 

That's 4-5 vs. SFL elites in the playoffs, not good, not bad, you win some you lose some, about what you'd expect

2-1 vs. BTW

1-1 vs. Dwyer

1-3 vs. MC

 

Also them not having a close game all season is more a testament to them this year than a slight to their schedule as Plant, TBT, and Hillsborough (x2) were all pretty good this year, better then the last few years.

And do you really think none of the teams Armwood faced this year "are remotely as fast or physical across the board" as Naples?! That is asinine. Naples is not that good. The 3 aforementioned teams would all easily beat Naples as would Vanguard and St. augustine.

The game this year will be close, just like CC-LG last year but higher scoring. And I give the West the edge due to being more battle tested vs. elites and having engaged in close games

There was no hidden agenda here.  Why start 10 years ago?  ...nice round number.  I actually spoke of Armwood's excellent 2004 team in another post related to this topic.  But why stop at 2004?  Let's go back even further in the decade, when Armwood visited the Muck in the 2000 state semis and beaten by Glades Central 41-15.  No matter how you slice the pie, one can plainly see that Armwood has had a tough time(either losing or winning very tight games) with south Florida teams.   That's probably not a big surprise for most.

And why did I "conveniently" leave out 2010 and 2011 and "disingenuously" list Armwood's "loss" to the Nevada team?  I was simply going by the record books, nothing more and nothing less.  I am not that familiar with all of the circumstances surrounding the forfeiture of those games.  I wasn't willing to assume that five ineligible players on a team had absolutely no impact on Armwood's  performance those seasons, so I did not include those scores.  

But let's include them now.   Armwood beat Dwyer on a last-second field goal in 2010.  In 2011, Armwood struggled to win against Central.  If their defense had not made a stand in the fourth quarter, they could have lost that game.  Armwood won both games against Booker T in 2004 and 2005 with last-second scores, and gave up big points in each.  Both of those teams struggled with each other.  For me, a struggle is more than just a big loss. 

So, since 2000, Armwood against south Florida teams (oops, I conveniently picked that date, didn't I):

6 losses (5 of 20 points or more and all 14 points or more)

5 wins (3 won in the last seconds of the game, one tough game vs Central, and 1 big win against Booker T in 2003 )

...judge for yourself.

As a side note, those years Armwood  beat Booker T,  BT and Armwood were in 4A and BT was not playing the better teams in Dade County.  There were numerous teams in Dade arguably as good or better.  On paper, I had the Armwood teams in 04 and 05 as solid favorites.  And when you looked at the teams, Armwood looked much bigger.  But BT's speed made it very tough.  And now Armwood is facing a school known for its speed.  Check out their track history and you''ll see what I mean.    

And finally, I was speaking of Northwestern, not Naples, when I commented previously that Armwood has likely not faced an opponent that fast and physical.  ...fast-look at NW's track dynasty.  ....physical-if you have never been to Liberty City, you wouldn't understand. 

Have a nice evening, all!

 

 

   

[FLFB]

2 hours ago, OldSchoolLion said:

 

There was no hidden agenda here.  Why start 10 years ago?  ...nice round number.  I actually spoke of Armwood's excellent 2004 team in another post related to this topic.  But why stop at 2004?  Let's go back even further in the decade, when Armwood visited the Muck in the 2000 state semis and beaten by Glades Central 41-15.  No matter how you slice the pie, one can plainly see that Armwood has had a tough time(either losing or winning very tight games) with south Florida teams.   That's probably not a big surprise for most.

And why did I "conveniently" leave out 2010 and 2011 and "disingenuously" list Armwood's "loss" to the Nevada team?  I was simply going by the record books, nothing more and nothing less.  I am not that familiar with all of the circumstances surrounding the forfeiture of those games.  I wasn't willing to assume that five ineligible players on a team had absolutely no impact on Armwood's  performance those seasons, so I did not include those scores.  

But let's include them now.   Armwood beat Dwyer on a last-second field goal in 2010.  In 2011, Armwood struggled to win against Central.  If their defense had not made a stand in the fourth quarter, they could have lost that game.  Armwood won both games against Booker T in 2004 and 2005 with last-second scores, and gave up big points in each.  Both of those teams struggled with each other.  For me, a struggle is more than just a big loss. 

So, since 2000, Armwood against south Florida teams (oops, I conveniently picked that date, didn't I):

6 losses (5 of 20 points or more and all 14 points or more)

5 wins (3 won in the last seconds of the game, one tough game vs Central, and 1 big win against Booker T in 2003 )

...judge for yourself.

As a side note, those years Armwood  beat Booker T,  BT and Armwood were in 4A and BT was not playing the better teams in Dade County.  There were numerous teams in Dade arguably as good or better.  On paper, I had the Armwood teams in 04 and 05 as solid favorites.  And when you looked at the teams, Armwood looked much bigger.  But BT's speed made it very tough.  And now Armwood is facing a school known for its speed.  Check out their track history and you''ll see what I mean.    

And finally, I was speaking of Northwestern, not Naples, when I commented previously that Armwood has likely not faced an opponent that fast and physical.  ...fast-look at NW's track dynasty.  ....physical-if you have never been to Liberty City, you wouldn't understand. 

Have a nice evening, all!

Armwood was not yet a powerhouse in 2000, they didn't even win their district that year and the state semis was uncharted waters for them. In fact they had never even so much as reached the regional finals prior to that season nor had they ever won their district. Glades Central was in their heyday and an established state and national powerhouse. Therefore it is pretty irrelevant to go back that far. https://bigcountypreps.com/team-history/armwood-hawks/

Armwood has no more a tough time with top South Florida powerhouses as any other team does, including other SFL powers. If they were beating them easily, then SFL wouldn't be elite.

5 ineligible players, of which 1 started (and he wasn't a bluechip stud, he was an FCS kid), none of the some 15-20 FBS recruits they had that year were ruled ineligible. They didn't benefit from anything more than the top Miami squads benefit from every year. And you just nonchalantly ignore that Miami Central also had to forfeit their entire 2011 season because their QB Stock was from Broward. It's ok talking about how success is going to benefit MC, CC, MNW, etc. with transfers from all over Liberty City, Overtown, Miami Gardens, etc. but Armwood gets a transfer from another part of Tampa and omg they're cheaters, any win they had doesn't count.

You make it sound as if in the 2011 title game Armwood was lucky to beat MC and escaped by the skin of their teeth. I watched that game, Armwood was clearly the better team and in the drivers seat the entire game. Yes MC had a late comeback attempt that fell short but they never held a lead once that entire game.

Again, Armwood had not arrived yet as a program in 2000, so counting that game against heyday Glades Central is disingenuous.

The numerous Dade teams better than BTW in 04' and 05' comment is a load of bologna, name them if you think that.

This 2017 Armwood team is built on speed, not size.

I know about the West's track history, and I have watched players from Liberty City play

 

All that said, I am merely saying that to say Armwood has "struggled" vs SFL teams since they have become a powerhouse is inaccurate. I think our disagreement is simply a matter of semantics as I interpret "struggle with a team or group of teams" to imply that you cannot beat or compete with them, like if they were 1-9 or 2-8 (not 5-5, their record since they became a powerhouse in 2003)

Mind you every one of those games were either state semifinals or state championships, so they were getting the last surviving cream of the crop battle tested SFL team in those games, so yeah I wouldn't expect them to be blowing them out, and due to the weaker brackets some years (especially 6A north the last few years) they were able to sneak some of their weaker teams further in the playoffs leading to some blowout losses to those cream of the crop SFL teams.

[topnotch305]

8 hours ago, Zoe Boy said:

Better then Tutu ? I doubt it.. Rb for Armwood is legit but Da West hast 2... and I think this is the best secondary Armwood would have seen all year ... Divvad Wilson best DB in the state.. That’s including PS2 and Campbell at AHP and STA DBs... He made me a believer..

Here's your boy!

 

 

[DarterBlue2]

8 hours ago, peezy28 said:

Actually that had nothing to do with it... They still do the same stuff.  It was when they lost OC Chris Taylor that they haven't been able to top the Miami programs.  

This years team is better than the last team they had that beat Central in the ineligiblebowl but I don't know if that means they can beat MNW... Different beast down there. 

EC, what happened to Chris Taylor, AKA, Armwood Fan? Is he still in coaching?

[181pl]

1 hour ago, DarterBlue2 said:

EC, what happened to Chris Taylor, AKA, Armwood Fan? Is he still in coaching?

No. He moved on to Jesuit as an O.C. for a year or two then got out of coaching.

[181pl]

7 hours ago, topnotch305 said:

Here's your boy!

 

 

Excellent highlights. Need to stay away from that guy or there will be turnovers.

[Zoe Boy]

37 minutes ago, 181pl said:

Excellent highlights. Need to stay away from that guy or there will be turnovers.

But the whole secondary is good...

[181pl]

Yeah, but Armwood can't play scared. They NEVER play aggressive enough in these games. Maybe with a new coach this year (Evan Davis), they will turn up the aggression factor.

[peezy28]

3 hours ago, DarterBlue2 said:

EC, what happened to Chris Taylor, AKA, Armwood Fan? Is he still in coaching?

Callahan wanted DAvis to be the OC since he was on Campus and pushed CT out.  I don't think their friendship was ever repaired. 

[181pl]

53 minutes ago, peezy28 said:

Callahan wanted DAvis to be the OC since he was on Campus and pushed CT out.  I don't think their friendship was ever repaired. 

I was leaving the dirty laundry out of it but you r correct. Harrell at Jesuit tried to hire Davis as his OC. But Callahan didn't want him to leave so he made him  the OC and Chris left and went to coach with Harrell.

[DisabledAccount]

17 minutes ago, 181pl said:

I was leaving the dirty laundry out of it but you r correct. Harrell at Jesuit tried to hire Davis as his OC. But Callahan didn't want him to leave so he made him  the OC and Chris left and went to coach with Harrell.

What year did he leave for Jesuit? 

[DarterBlue2]

2 hours ago, peezy28 said:

Callahan wanted DAvis to be the OC since he was on Campus and pushed CT out.  I don't think their friendship was ever repaired. 

Sorry it went that way. He seemed like a decent guy.

[peezy28]

9 minutes ago, DarterBlue2 said:

Sorry it went that way. He seemed like a decent guy.

CT is awesome, when I worked in Tampa used to get Happy hour with those guys a lot and still go to their Christmas parties and stuff. 

[181pl]

7 hours ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

What year did he leave for Jesuit? 

2010 or 2011